"Eco-Vets"

Re: "Eco-Vets"

Bob Russell — Tue, 03 Jan 2012 11:30:12 GMT

We keep looking at oxygen concentrators but apparently they will not work with our low O2 alarm so have not really taken that one any further. Anyone using them for anaesthesia?

Halothane and Iso are pretty poor for the ozone layer but I have not seen an environmentally friendly inhalable agent. I suspect in the grand scheme of things we are pretty small contributors compared to BOC!

Re: "Eco-Vets"

Tony Knapp — Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:43:30 GMT

Well on the gasses front compressing all that oxygen and transporting it around must be pretty big on the green footprint front, especially when we're wading through the stuff for free, and there are options for gaseous aneasthetics with ambient air, to be fair only really used in wildlife where carrying oxygen cylinders is impractical, and would only be suitable for routine procedures in healthy animals, nonetheless, the concept is interesting.

http://www.carnivoreconservation.org/files/issues/wildlife_air_anesthesia.pdf

Re: "Eco-Vets"

patrick murphy — Wed, 28 Dec 2011 13:50:26 GMT

thanks will try

Re: "Eco-Vets"

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 23 Dec 2011 13:13:07 GMT

[quote user="patrick murphy"]don't know if it made it, but does anyone know of LED solution for the spotlights in my waiting room? they must guzzle electricity.[/quote]

No sure what size spots you've got, but this might be helpful: http://www.simplyled.co.uk

Re: "Eco-Vets"

patrick murphy — Fri, 23 Dec 2011 13:01:21 GMT

don't know if it made it, but does anyone know of LED solution for the spotlights in my waiting room? they must guzzle electricity.

Re: "Eco-Vets"

Laurence Webb — Fri, 23 Dec 2011 11:32:15 GMT

Although the primary reason for good pre-medication is patient analgesia and smooth inductions and recovery it does also reduce inhalation anaesthetic agent requirement. Pre-meds with ACP/Atropine alone are (I hope) a thing of the past, but having to whack the halothane up to 3 or 4% when pulling on ovaries in a bitch spay is uneconomical, bad for the environment and not great for the patient.

Using rebreathing circuits, not having leaking tubing and well fitting/cuffed ET tubes all help too.

Re: "Eco-Vets"

Clive Ansell — Fri, 23 Dec 2011 11:26:15 GMT

[quote user="David Beattie"]

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]Should we phase out Halothane, Isoflurane and all those other nasty CFCs?[/quote]

It wasn't that long ago that I did a student placement in a practice that was yet to phase them in! LA immobilon diluted into a bottle 1:10 with water and injected 1cc/10kg if I remember rightly; the vet had never seen remembered having an anaesthetic death, so couldn't quite see why his new assistant was insisting on an oxygen cylinder and vapourizer...

[/quote]

Been there and bought the T shirt too.

I did a one week locum in 2005 where the practice had no bottled oxygen or inhalation anaesthesia. Xylazine/ketamine for cats, and acp tablets and thio top up for dogs. Immobilon was there too but I didn't use it. Rightly or wrongly I refused all surgery except cat castrates. Also, no autoclave.

The funniest was Ye Olde cat castration blade. The same blade was used for every cat castrate, kept on the end of a piece of string in an old Rimadyl pot half filled with spirit. That there old blade has castrated many a cat. Don't tell, but while boss man was away I exchanged it for a new one

Forget veterinary science, I thought about opening it up to the public as a pre 1950's working museum.

Re: "Eco-Vets"

Clive Ansell — Fri, 23 Dec 2011 11:17:12 GMT

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]

Should we phase out Halothane, Isoflurane and all those other nasty CFCs?

[/quote]

Very good point. maybe we should look at ways of using less inhalation agents, or better ways of scavenging, and not just spewing the stuff out through a hole in the wall.

Since Thiopentone as all but disappeared and I am forced in many places to use Propofol (I think it is overrated), I have noticed that settings for inhalation agents have to be higher. Maybe pre-med and induction agent choice should centre more around how much inhalation agents are used and their environmental impact ? Short ops done under Domitor/opiate/ketamine often need only O2.

Re: "Eco-Vets"

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 23 Dec 2011 10:33:43 GMT

David Thank goodnes we've moved on from the bad old days

Wynne

Re: "Eco-Vets"

Anonymous — Thu, 22 Dec 2011 21:37:45 GMT

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]Should we phase out Halothane, Isoflurane and all those other nasty CFCs?[/quote]

Re: "Eco-Vets"

Laurence Webb — Thu, 22 Dec 2011 19:58:08 GMT

Should we phase out Halothane, Isoflurane and all those other nasty CFCs?

Re: "Eco-Vets"

Anonymous — Thu, 22 Dec 2011 14:38:54 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I once spent 45mins talking to someone on their mobile phone (I had returned the call so my bill), going through correct husbandry etc.., before I was told they were in Northern Ireland! Must have cost me a fair bit! Once they are told that they will have to pay a consult fee, whether or not they come in, it is amazing how many decide they can make it into the surgery afterall....![/quote]

LOL

I've fielded a fair few similar calls working either in Scotland or N.I. A couple of practices had receptionists who went into automatic pilot when someone asked to speak to "a vet" and would politely interrupt a consult for such meaningful enquiries as "What should I feed my horse", even if the caller was unidentified and usually not a client.

One of my personal favourites was an enquiry as to what was the collective noun for a group of goats; after much debate amongst staff members and farmers in the reception area the caller was advised he could refer to his goats collectively as a 'flock'... I arrived at a TB test a little later to find the blood-tester and farmer with their ears to the radio listening to the results of a radio-quiz when what question should come up but the collective noun for a group of goats...! [ironically the answer they were looking for was a 'trip', so our mystery caller's odd initiative did not pay off]

Re: "Eco-Vets"

Rob Watkins — Thu, 22 Dec 2011 14:34:17 GMT

These went live just in time for the December 12th deadline....

Even in this winter sun the meter is running backwards...

Re: "Eco-Vets"

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 22 Dec 2011 14:11:45 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]I have often wondered why we do not routinely charge for telephone advice[/quote]

We do! We get so many phone calls each day from exotics people that we've had to start charging a consultation fee up front before we will speak to them. It has to be paid by credit card. I once spent 45mins talking to someone on their mobile phone (I had returned the call so my bill), going through correct husbandry etc.., before I was told they were in Northern Ireland! Must have cost me a fair bit! Once they are told that they will have to pay a consult fee, whether or not they come in, it is amazing how many decide they can make it into the surgery afterall....!

(We obviously don't charge clients who have already been to the surgery!)

Re: "Eco-Vets"

patrick murphy — Thu, 22 Dec 2011 13:52:01 GMT

I was thinking the other day if I could replace my tracked spotlights with a LED spotlight that would be less energy hungry. does anyone know?

Re: "Eco-Vets"

Clive Ansell — Wed, 21 Dec 2011 18:43:50 GMT

[quote user="David Beattie"]

Now that's some 'blue-sky' thinking So more phone/internet advice (and charging for this is we want to keep this a business) and less "best bring him in for a check-over"? Don't think Skype consults will take off though and I guess you'd fall foul of regulations again as I think the RCVS would frown upon treating patients without laying on those healing hands before posting out the metacam.

[/quote]

I have often wondered why we do not routinely charge for telephone advice, particulary OOH; I cannot think of another profession that doesn't? it could be done via standard billing or via a premium rate line? A recent call to an accountant cost me £40 for his time.

I once did a remote "hands off" consult using a moveable CCTV camera. Client was drunk and aggressive and threatening staff through the intercom -no way on this earth he was going to be allowed in. I could easily see his "collapsed" GSD running around, jumping up and cocking his leg - no obvious emergency - packed him off to own vet next day - didn't even charge him!

Re: "Eco-Vets"

Anonymous — Wed, 21 Dec 2011 18:00:51 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]What then do you mean by eco vet - I assumed you meant sustainable/green/low carbon etc.? Isn't animal welfare/impact a different thing?[/quote]

I think you're right to separate environmental concerns from matters of individual animal welfare, but I guess I was going with the thoughts of what I think of when I consider a general Greenpeace/WWF supporting client (I guess as opposed to someone supporting the CPL). So yes, I did mean sustainable/green/low carbon etc.

I think whether you consider animal welfare/impact to be a different thing depends on your definition of animal welfare (which I suspect probably tends to be defined differently by members of vet profession compared to environmental activists). Some consider animal welfare to do more with the maintenance of healthy ecosystems or 'Conservation', while others consider it to be a matter of individual "Animal Rights" and the veterinary profession probably largely consider it to be to do with positive and negative "affective states", "pain" and "health". No matter what definition you choose, however, much environmental damage is generally regarded as "bad" for the welfare of the animals that live in that environment (like those in rainforests in the case of deforestation etc.)

When considering customer-led ethical policies of larger organisations like the Co-operative Bank, matters of environmental impact and matters of animal welfare bordering on the "Rights" perspective such as animal testing and experimentation seem to both feature prominently and I'm not sure the average client separates these as much as vets might?

There's not a lot out there for the animal welfare concerned pet-owner (at least in the mainstream market). I've not looked, but don't see many clients buying pet food with the RSPCA Freedom Foods label or similar. But, you're right, it's more environmental impact "Eco" that I was thinking of, so I guess "organic" pet food does exist and as you say has nothing to do with the specific welfare of the animal's in it.

[quote user="robloxley"]Sustainably heated by burning some kind of renewable organic fuel? Or, less controversially, solar PV/hot water and insulation for starters? Washig machine and other appliances run on grey water?[/quote]

All good suggestions, but I guess apply to any business. I was more thinking of aspects that would set a Practice aside from current 'norms' in a more veterinary-specific fashion.

[quote user="robloxley"]Or rather look at what the largest part of our carbon footprint probably is - our clients travelling to see us - and try to reduce this?[/quote]

[quote user="robloxley"]Unfortunately the greenest option would be for people to have fewer pets, but that's less 'sustainable' in a different way...[/quote]

True.

Re: "Eco-Vets"

Rob Loxley — Wed, 21 Dec 2011 17:22:42 GMT

[quote user="David Beattie"]cannot choose medicines that have not been trialled on animals[/quote]

What then do you mean by eco vet - I assumed you meant sustainable/green/low carbon etc.? Isn't animal welfare/impact a different thing?

[quote user="David Beattie"]So, what would an "Eco-Vets" look like practically speaking?[/quote]

Sustainably heated by burning some kind of renewable organic fuel? Or, less controversially, solar PV/hot water and insulation for starters? Washig machine and other appliances run on grey water?

Or rather look at what the largest part of our carbon footprint probably is - our clients travelling to see us - and try to reduce this?

Unfortunately the greenest option would be for people to have fewer pets, but that's less 'sustainable' in a different way...

Re: "Eco-Vets"

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 21 Dec 2011 11:02:19 GMT

Change the law so as toscrap the cascade so no need for harmfulre-testing-especially as animaltesting was needed to obtain the original human licence

Change the law so tablet bottles could be reused

Under existing law choose old cleaning products -own brands often cheaper as well,partly because the cost of trialing was ages ago

Wynne

Re: "Eco-Vets"

Richard Carter — Wed, 21 Dec 2011 11:02:05 GMT

Going to have some large gentlemen with dark sunglasses and things in their ears who are absolutely not connected with any drug company coming to visit fairly soon for suggesting that we re-look at at our tried and tested methods.....