OSCE VN Practicals

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

plantagenet — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 21:20:57 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]In fairness it's not the EV or head of examns or anyone else at the RCVS who should be informing individual students what to do to pass examns it your course provider.[/quote]

Ha Ha not like GCSEs then!

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

Niall Taylor — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 21:00:10 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]The safest way to dispose of a jug of urine is to pour it into the toilet![/quote]

Well, honestly, if you're going to invoke such outdated ideas as "commonsense" and "logic" we might as well end this discussion right now

Niall

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

Niall Taylor — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 20:56:56 GMT

[quote user="karen jones"]I checked it wasn't our EV but Vicky Hedges who is head of exams and quality in VN at the RCVS...[/quote]

In fairness it's not the EV or head of examns or anyone else at the RCVS who should be informing individual students what to do to pass examns it your course provider.

Niall

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

plantagenet — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 16:44:38 GMT

I wish the rules concentrated on what was really hazardous rather than an odd perception of what comes under some 'hazardous' heading. I object to having to send stuff for incineration (releasing god knows what contaminants) when it has almost zero actual risk. Blanket definitions such as 'cytotoxic' (which our environment agency inspector couldn't define, tho') which includes real nasties to the frankly harmless.

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

Bob Russell — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 14:51:52 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]I would warn against mixing old urine and bleach. You could get chlorine gas production from the mix, i hear.

[/quote]

Quite right! We don't bother with the bleach bit!

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 14:33:35 GMT

I would warn against mixing old urine and bleach. You could get chlorine gas production from the mix, i hear.

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

Bob Russell — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 14:00:51 GMT

[quote user="karen jones"]

I checked it wasn't our EV but Vicky Hedges who is head of exams and quality in VN at the RCVS. We tried her again and had a sarcastic reply saying that a student who completed the NPL should know how to do it and that if she'd put in the clinical waste wearing gloves the she would have passed. They won't tell them what they did wrong and she is sure that she did exactly that. The urine is in a large open topped measuring jug not a universal container with a screw lid, so should it be poured directly in clinical waste bag, decanted into something else who knows??

I think that they haven't fully standardised their marking as the nurses seemed to have been marked differently depending on the centre

[/quote]

The safest way to dispose of a jug of urine is to pour it into the toilet! If necessary perhaps add some approved disinfectant or bleach (as long as full face mask, respirator, arm length double thickness gloves and impervious apron over waterproof protective suit are worn).

I suspect decanting such a dangerous fluid would be considered inappropriate because of the splash risk so that has to be out!

If in doubt call the Fire Brigade, making sure they are wearing full HazMat gear. They must have a written protocol for disposal of a bit of dog urine! An alternative would be to take it outside and pour it against the nearest tree. This seems to have worked for years!

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

karen jones — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 13:33:25 GMT

I think that they haven't fully standardised their marking as the nurses seemed to have been marked differently depending on the centre

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

Minnie — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 11:16:55 GMT

[quote user="Judith Joyce"]

There are far too many in the VN training industry making too much money out of the system, a system that has been propped over the years by a succession of ignorant apologists in RCVS.

Malcolm N

[/quote]

And don't we know it - It has almost become a foreign language, devoid of common sense, with the content of the training being decided and taught in many cases by people who are far removed from an actual working veterinary practice. It has struck me more than once there must be one helluva an income to be made from all these re- sits

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

Bob Russell — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 11:16:30 GMT

There are very few situations where urine samples will be a real threat if flushed down the loo. I think a nurse should be examined as if a worst case scenario exists and should be able to show a result that the most rabid H&S 'consultant' would accept.

It is completely unacceptable for an examining authority to withhold the answer they are looking for. I wonder if it was because they were not actually sure themselves!

The local water board have no problem with pet urine samples going down the toilet - I have asked! Bleach or disinfectant will render the tiny additional risk of eg; Lepto insignificant. Sewers are full of rats anyway.

Our samples will continue to be flushed into the sewers but I would not suggest this option to an examiner!

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 11:04:03 GMT

No wonder elf and safety has everyone tearing their hair out

Wynne

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

Judith Joyce — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 10:41:46 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Will someone please explain to me why a loo is an acceptable container for human urine but not animalurine ?

I'm totally bewildered I thought that's what loos were for

Wynne

[/quote]

Applying that kind of common sense is exactly what leads to a student VN failing their exams absolutely - there is no appeal against these "safety issue" bits. We have railed against this nonsense for years and years but to no avail. There are far too many in the VN training industry making too much money out of the system, a system that has been propped over the years by a succession of ignorant apologists in RCVS.

re the earlier comment attributed to the EV. If that is true, they should be sacked.

Malcolm N

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 09:39:02 GMT

Will someone please explain to me why a loo is an acceptable container for human urine but not animalurine ?

I'm totally bewildered I thought that's what loos were for

Wynne

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

Niall Taylor — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 07:26:39 GMT

[quote user="karen jones"]Myerscough says draw into syringe and place in clinical waste with absorbent paper but couldn't answer when the student said that you can't put syringes in the clinical waste bin only DOOP.[/quote]

If Myerscough are the course provider I'd go with that - it is perfectly acceptible for syringes to go for land fill so long as they don't contain redidual pharmaceuticals (hence the 'P' in DOOP), most practices will have an "all syringes in DOOP" rule for simplicity. The rule for landfill is that you can have a certain amount of body fluid (e.g. soaked up in swabs, dressings etc) going in, so a syringe with the leftovers after a blood sample or a bit of urine in is in theory allowed so long as there is nothing contagious. The only issue I might have with Myerscough is the quantiy - if you've got a pint of urine from a generous great Dane in your syringes that's hardly a residue.

I definitely wouldn't advise a trainee to suggest flushing urine down the loo - I know that's a real world solution but unfortunately nurse training (as opposed to actual nursing) is less and less 'real world' these days.

Myerscough (or the course provider) MUST give you the definitive answer - they're the ones getting paid to do the bloomin' training, you're just an unpaid volunteer!

Niall

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 21:02:13 GMT

Oh yes they do!!!

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 20:41:44 GMT

Urine is sterile. Surplus samples go down the sink with a swill of water. Human nurses don't wear gloves when doing a dipstick on human urine.

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

karen jones — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 08:07:53 GMT

Got those, our practice manager has been an OSCE examiner so we 're usually well up to speed. This is a new task and there is no clarification as to what is wanted. Think it's time to stir RCVS nursing department up with a grumpy old woman phone call

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

Sally Everitt — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 05:55:30 GMT

Hi Karen,

The details of the OSCE's are on the RCVS website but seem to have become somewhat difficult to find -however here is the link http://awardingbody.rcvs.org.uk/examinations/practical-examinations/osce-stations/

I printed them all out when I was training student nurses so that they could do them exactly as per the exam

Good luck for your nurse

Sally

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 20:31:26 GMT

[quote user="karen jones"]

The EV when asked replied that the student should do more research.

[/quote]

Then the EV needs to be spoken to. This is not a children's guessing game, this is a test - if the answer is wrong, give the correct answer, not "keep looking, young apprentice!"

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

karen jones — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 19:53:00 GMT

Thanks now need to work out how to post on the vn site!!

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

Jill Nute — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 19:34:57 GMT

Then I would definitely recommend the vetnurse website for their input!! Jill

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

karen jones — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 16:16:43 GMT

The only feedback is that you failed the task and there is no information we can find in how they want it done!!

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

Jill Nute — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 15:06:41 GMT

In case you didn't know, the OSCE's are all described on the RCVS website, so worth checking www.rcvs.org.uk , put osce in the search box, & read the appropriate task.It may also be helpful to put a post on the www.vetnurse.co.uk website as well if you haven't already done that . Do you know if the failure was because of the chosen disposal route, or whether there was something like an accidental self contamination/not wearing gloves?? Good luck anyway for the next attempt. Jill

Re: OSCE VN Practicals

Bob Russell — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 14:39:38 GMT

What do you think their reaction would be spilled samples to soak it up with toilet tissue and put it down the loo? Perfectly acceptable I would have thought especially if followed by a good dollop of bleach!

I would agree that syringes would not be acceptable in yellow 'tiger' bags because ours go for landfill! Orange hazardous waste bags would probably be OK as I would not expect them to be examined closely by anyone as by definition they are a bio-hazard! I would have said what your nurse did was sensible especially if the waste bag was to be incinerated. Odds and ends such as urine samples in containers do go into the pharmacy waste (green) containers if there is any question of hazard. Most of our samples go down the drain in the consulting room. Probably real red star stuff for that!

There may be a big difference between common sense (is it a hazard or not for example?) and the exam answer. We had an inspection by the Environment Agency a few years ago and the inspector was totally clueless about risk assessing veterinary waste. He ended up closely inspecting our cardboard bin outside!