Equine vet consent for physio/chiro etc - what do you do?

Re: Equine vet consent for physio/chiro etc - what do you do?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 10:56:26 GMT

If physio is member of ACPAT-fine If not, and documentation with your signature gets to Royal College-then you could be in trouble

Wynne

Re: Equine vet consent for physio/chiro etc - what do you do?

Wren — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 10:26:59 GMT

As someone involved in competing in eventing at a reasonably high level I can see both sides of the coin. From the competitors side routine physio is an important part of keeping competition horses on the road and I wouldn't want nor expect a veterinary referral every time I had the physio out. I generally have a 'pre-season' physio check done on my eventers in about Februrary - ie. once they're back in full work but before the serious competing starts - to address any stiffness/muscle problems and then probably another check mid-season. I have one horse at the moment who is quite stiff through the back and he will be seen by the physio three or four times over the winter. As a rider I would feel competent to address these issues between my physio and myself, even if I didn't happen to be a vet. I'm sure the myriad racing cyclists on here wouldn't expect Mark Cavendish to stay on the road without regular physiotherapy - it's part of the general maintenace of any athlete, human or equine.

With my veterinary hat on I mostly get faxed a consent form to sign before physios/osteopaths work on my clients' horses. I have never refused to give consent but I feel it keeps me in the loop and the most-used physio in this area always sends me her notes afterwards as well. It's not a referral, just a professional courtesy and it keeps me abreast of any issues. In cases where physio is required post-injury I make the referral myself.

Re: Equine vet consent for physio/chiro etc - what do you do?

Niall Taylor — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 16:50:32 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]A man takes his duck to see the veterinary chiropractor. As they are sitting waiting the man says to the duck, 'whatever you do, do not speak when we get in there'.[/quote]

Niall

Re: Equine vet consent for physio/chiro etc - what do you do?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 15:48:15 GMT

A man takes his duck to see the veterinary chiropractor. As they are sitting waiting the man says to the duck, 'whatever you do, do not speak when we get in there'.

Re: Equine vet consent for physio/chiro etc - what do you do?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 10:06:26 GMT

If a physio is a member of ACPAT then refer as you would to a farrier They are properly qualified professionals, and no problems,either legal or moral in working with them-and it can be of considerable benefit to the animal

Anybody else-don't have anything to do with them-by treating animals whilst not on the register and without a legal derogation,they are criminals-so treat them like you would any other criminal I wish RoyalCollege would follow the example of the Farriers Registration Council, and be more pro-active in prosecuting these people

Wynne

Re: Equine vet consent for physio/chiro etc - what do you do?

Braden Collins — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 02:19:07 GMT

I think from my perspective I would be happy to refer an animal to a physio if they were suitably qualified and I trusted their work. I feel that in any way involving ourselves with "referral" to a practitioner where we don't believe in what they do would potentially leave us open to any litigation which may be triggered if things go wrong.

As I believe homeopaths and other atlernative treatments don't work, I would advise the client that they would have to organise the consults, etc themselves. I would give the client a copy of any history they ask for, and leave it for them to pass it on to whoever they want. I would explain to them that I would not be involved in the process, explain my reasons, and leave it up to the client to decide. If you believe these things do work, I think it would be appropriate to refer the case in a similar manner to other referrals.

Remember these people need to work within the laws with respect to diagnosis of disease in animals.

From personal experience, I once has a chiropractor (which the client organised without my involvement) tell a horse client my diagnosis was incorrect. The owner believed them, refused to let me see the horse again because I had "misdiagnosed" the problem, and we ended up euthanasing the horse when it didn't respond to the chiropractors treatment. My initial diagnosis has been correct. So if other therapists are involved, it may be worth looking for ways to stay involved in the case to ensure the best outcome for the animal.

Re: Equine vet consent for physio/chiro etc - what do you do?

Gerry Henry — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 20:23:23 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

...In addition chiropractic is dangerous and in several cases death has resulted from manipulations of the neck; additionally many practitioners rip clients off by maintaining that babies need regular manipulations from just a few days of age in order to stay healthy and subject them to pointless and unnecessary x-rays.

If anything, because it represents an active (as opposed to simply passive) threat to health, chiropractic is worse than homeopathy.

Niall

[/quote]

Physiotherapy is not all good either. I think I'm right in saying that as far as evidence-based medicine goes, there has not been much showing benefits for physiotherapy either. I've some - lots in fact - and one certainly feels better afterwards, and it certainly seems logical to stretch scarred tissues, improve one's balance and posture, but it does not speed up recovery times as far as I'm aware.

The other side of the coin though is that as a sufferer of cervical spondylosis since the age of 14, I had physio about fifteen years ago and my right arm went largely numb and weak. The orthopaedic specialist was hopping mad and told me that no-one should ever manipulate a neck. Fortunately the arm recovered a couple of weeks later.

[/quote]

Mine said the same thing, he'd completely failed to diagnose my problem and apart from increasing doses of pain killers had no treatment plan. The osteopath carried out an amazingly thorough examination before beginning a gently escalating course of massage and manipulation. Don't get me wrong, I didn't go to this guy expecting miracles, to be honest my first reaction when i saw him was 'Oh great, a f*cking hippy' however flight was impossible so I stayed. Anyhow we actually got on quite well; I thought the theory of cranial osteopathy was garbage and we laughed about it but the point is that almost from day one the pain began receding; one manipulation involved gentle traction during which I actually felt the pain draining from my head - I was cured. Unfortunately he emigrated to New Zealand, I've tried a few others over the years (not for the same condition) and none have rerally been any good, its a gift.

Re Niall's post above about alternative practitioners causing damage, I bet conventional medicine has killed/maimed a hell of a lot more.

Re: Equine vet consent for physio/chiro etc - what do you do?

Julian Earl — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 20:04:41 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

If anything, because it represents an active (as opposed to simply passive) threat to health, chiropractic is worse than homeopathy.

Niall

[/quote]

Re: Equine vet consent for physio/chiro etc - what do you do?

Niall Taylor — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 18:29:25 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]

Can't speak for chiropracters but my osteopath (5 yrs training), fixed my chronic neck pain in 3 months after all others (consultants, physio, etc etc) had failed. Its all about the individual, either they have 'it' or they don't.

No comparison with homeopathy.[/quote]

Osteopaths have certainly made an effort to "go respectible" with modern practitioners adopting a scientific approach, having largely given up the extreme manipulations they used to do (eg shaking a child and wringing its neck to cure measles).

Chiropractic on the other hand is still firmly based in fiction, claiming that some 95% of disease is caused by so called 'spinal luxations' which have never been demonstrated to exist and which, even if they did, a/ couldn't possibly be the cause of the problems claimed and b/ couldn't possibly be simply 'popped back into place' in the way they claim.

In addition chiropractic is dangerous and in several cases death has resulted from manipulations of the neck; additionally many practitioners rip clients off by maintaining that babies need regular manipulations from just a few days of age in order to stay healthy and subject them to pointless and unnecessary x-rays.

If anything, because it represents an active (as opposed to simply passive) threat to health, chiropractic is worse than homeopathy.

Niall

Re: Equine vet consent for physio/chiro etc - what do you do?

Bob Russell — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 18:03:04 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

It's interesting that you use a term 'physio/chiro' as if they are the same thing - they aren't. Physiotherapy is a useful type of adjunct therapy with whereas chiropractic is based on pseudoscience and has no place in real medicine.

I work with small animals rather than horses but I feel the principle is the same. I'm happy to work with physiotherapists and hydrotherapists and do a full referral as I would with a veterinary professional but for pseudomedicines such as chiro, homeopathy etc I prefer clients to self refer. If a client feels strongly about going to such people I won't stop them unless I believe there is a risk of harm - eg/ due to chiropractic manipulations of injured or damaged tissues. If I feel it is appropriate I will explain why such a route is a waste of time but leave the decision up to the client. If such a practitioner wants consent from me I will give it but I will not forward x-rays or history other than to a veterinary professional.

Niall

[/quote]

No comparison with homeopathy.

[/quote]

I have used a physio/osteopath for a trapped nerve. His training is science based unlike 'chiropractic' which seems almost as alternate as homoeopathy!

Re: Equine vet consent for physio/chiro etc - what do you do?

Gerry Henry — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 16:03:51 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

Niall

[/quote]

No comparison with homeopathy.

Re: Equine vet consent for physio/chiro etc - what do you do?

Amanda Nicholls — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 11:14:11 GMT

Great answer Niall.

I feel very strongly that chiro could be harmful and I don't think it should be used on animals. I would not refer an animal for chiropractic treatment and would say to the client they would be acting against veterinary advice if they decided to self refer.

Physio in the right hands can be a very useful therapy. Happy to refer.

Re: Equine vet consent for physio/chiro etc - what do you do?

Niall Taylor — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 07:24:58 GMT

Niall