Age to rehome new puppy?

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Anne Seawright — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 21:42:43 GMT

[quote user="David Beattie"]Thanks, Cat & Anne, I hadn't seen that paper - interesting, having said that I'm not sure it lends any evidence to suggesting that rehoming puppies from breeder after 8 weeks is better than 7 weeks (or 6 weeks for that matter)?[/quote]

I agree.

[quote user="David Beattie"]That brings me back to the fact that any recommendations that is better to leave pup with litter and mother until 8 weeks seem to be based purely on the behaviourists (like those whom Cat has been speaking to) own reasoning and anecdote?[/quote]

That would be my guess, yes, but I cannot answer for anyone Cat has spoken to. I have been looking for evidence for the last couple of hours and can't find any relevant papers. Any references I found to age at homing were retrospective (and so failed to ask relevant questions at the time of homing) and looked at all behavioural effects, (personality of pup, mum and dad, environment and experiences up to 6 months of age) and so there are too many other factors to say in any way that the age at homing has an effect. For example Abbleby et al., (Vet Record, 2002) stated that regardless of whether puppies were homed before 7 weeks of age or after 7 weeks of age, if their socialisation experiences were poor they were more likely to show behavioural problems related to fear as adults....... again, not the specific answer that you want. Although that might be the answer.... it doesn't seem to matter as long as the socialisation experiences are 'good' and match the environment they are expected to live in as adults.

[quote user="David Beattie"]

[quote user="Anne Seawright"]From a behavioural point of view, as with everything in behaviour, there is no one answer fits all.[/quote]

Quite agreed, but I did word the survey to say what advice you would give to the 'average' breeder for this reason. Or to put it another way, if you were to make a general recommendation that an 'average' breeder (as encountered in general practice) could simply follow, what would it be?

[/quote]

I really don't want to be difficult, but I am assuming by your response you think I am being, but I wouldn't give a general recommendation. I really, honestly do not think this question has one 'correct' answer.

If you want my opinion (based on my experience of seeing behavioural cases and therefore anecdotal and retrospective) I would be asking the breeders lots of questions about the environment etc as well as assessing the temperament of the mother, and then giving tailored advice on how they should go about socialisation in that litter and what homes would be most suited to their puppies. For example, if the mother is behaviourally sound (and the father), and the puppies are going to be reared in the household (not a shed/outbuilding/quiet conservatory on the edge of the house), with normal household sounds, with a variety of people, everyday objects, being left alone etc being introduced at an appropriate level, time scale etc to allow the puppies to become habituated (and not sensitised by too much going on, or at too high an intensity) and the puppies are going to a home that is matched and so has a very similar environment and experiences for the puppy, and to new owners who are going to continue to habituate the puppy to life and other well socialised dogs (even just at classes on walks), then I would suggest it probably wouldn't make a great deal of difference whether they are homed at 7/8/9/10 weeks. (I personally wouldnt really want to go above 10 weeks as still leave a few weeks of socialisation period in new home.)

If the mother/father is fearful, or if puppy is fearful then will be predisposed to developing fear related behaviours later in life so will need to be more careful about how the puppy is socialised.... lower intensity stimuli, slower, ensuring puppy is always happy.... in which case it will depend whether the breeder/new owner will be able to deal with this (and will have the environment to deal with this....e.g. small children, while often brilliant can sensitise a fearful puppy) and will be sensible, as to where the puppy is better off spending the majority of its sociaisation period (as well as how different the two environments are obviously).

The majority of behaviour cases we see at referral have a level of inadequate (or at least inadequate for the life that dog is expected to live) socialisation. I (anecdotally) have seen just as many dogs that I wish had been homed earlier (due to poor socialisation, or sensitisation at the breeders), than dogs who I wished had been homed later (due to poor socialisation after homing), so still doesn't give a general catch all answer.

[quote user="Anne Seawright"]Also the personality of the individual puppy, the mother (can learn bad habits as well as good), the littermates, and the behaviour/presence of any humans/other species in the environments will all have an influence.[/quote]

[quote user="David Beattie"]Agreed again, but unless you either provide easy to follow guidelines on how to measure and interpret these variables, or do an individual assessment of each breeder/litter/mother/puppy, then you can't really be basing your recommendation of a suitable age for re-homing on these variables (hence why I'm looking to see what people's average recommendation to the average breeder would be). [/quote]

I would provide as much of an individual assessment as I could, eg at prenatal, postnatal checks, although from my experience in general practice, few breeders wanted the vet's advice. I'm sorry if my answer isn't what you are looking for.

[quote user="David Beattie"]The majority of dog-owners at the practice I work at have one dog - this is surely VERY different to the environment at the breeders. They will be expected to spend often considerable periods of time on their own during an average day, no matter how stimulating the breeder's environment (not just the barren rescue shelters) is, surely one experience the pups are unlikely to get is sleeping alone at night etc.?[/quote]

Yes I agree, this is very different, and I would advice breeders to be getting puppies used to being left alone for this very reason and good breeders do have the puppies sleeping alone before they go to their new home. Equally puppies who come from a very stimulating breeders and who have an expectation of an exciting, busy life, generally wont do well behaviourally if left alone for the majority of the day with little to do.... it really is about matching the environments.

[quote user="David Beattie"]Is it your opinion that a 7 week old pup adapts better to this change of environment than a 8-10week old pup or vice versa?[/quote]

Sorry, but once again I am going to really annoy you with my answer. In my opinion, how well a puppy adapts to a change in environment depends on the personality of the pup and how different the environments are rather than the age of the pup.

I personally (based on anecdote) would put more effort into trying to make sure breeders are breeding and socialising appropriately, and that once a puppy goes to its new home the new owners are continuing this, rather than worrying so much about whether a few weeks makes a lot of difference (which I don't think it does if they are both good or both poor).

Sorry. Feel free to disregard my answers if not to your liking .

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Anonymous — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:30:46 GMT

Thanks, Cat & Anne, I hadn't seen that paper - interesting, having said that I'm not sure it lends any evidence to suggesting that rehoming puppies from breeder after 8 weeks is better than 7 weeks (or 6 weeks for that matter)?

That brings me back to the fact that any recommendations that is better to leave pup with litter and mother until 8 weeks seem to be based purely on the behaviourists (like those whom Cat has been speaking to) own reasoning and anecdote?

[quote user="Anne Seawright"]From a behavioural point of view, as with everything in behaviour, there is no one answer fits all.[/quote]

Agreed again, but unless you either provide easy to follow guidelines on how to measure and interpret these variables, or do an individual assessment of each breeder/litter/mother/puppy, then you can't really be basing your recommendation of a suitable age for re-homing on these variables (hence why I'm looking to see what people's average recommendation to the average breeder would be).

[quote user="Anne Seawright"]For example, if puppies are going to a home environment similar to the breeding environment then it would be beneficial for them to stay with mother and littermates for more than 8 weeks of age, however, if the environment at the breeders is very different (e.g. puppies born in rehoming shelters) or barren (which will result in the socialisation period being shorter as they are not being stimulated) then rehome at about 7-8 weeks so they have experiences of the environment they will be expected to live in for as long as possible during their socialisation period.[/quote]

The majority of dog-owners at the practice I work at have one dog - this is surely VERY different to the environment at the breeders. They will be expected to spend often considerable periods of time on their own during an average day, no matter how stimulating the breeder's environment (not just the barren rescue shelters) is, surely one experience the pups are unlikely to get is sleeping alone at night etc.? Is it your opinion that a 7 week old pup adapts better to this change of environment than a 8-10week old pup or vice versa?

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:07:55 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"] Aaaaaaaaaahhhh!!

We expect daily bulletins. [/quote]

Night 1. Peed on the rug, crapped on the doormat.

Day 1. Peed on the rug. Peed on the floor. Peed on the sofa.

Do I need to go on?

Actually, I was thinking this morning that there should be some perks for being editor of this site, and that perhaps I should get Daisy sponsored by all the best pet consumable brands. At the moment, I'm thinking:

Fed courtesy of Royal Canin (that was what they said was best in the pet shop this morning).
Flea control by Novartis - Program
Worm control by Bayer - Drontal (that's what it has had so far at least)
Insurance by Petplan
Bones from J Cayford (Butchers) of Frome.
Dog bed and blankets from Harrods of London
Transport by H. R. Owen

er ... anything else I'm going to need?

[/quote]

Fed courtesy of Royal Canin - agreed but the stuff from the vet is better than the one the pet shops sells (honest)

Flea control by Pfizer (Stronghold) first dose then by Bayer (Advocate) once the little blighter starts eating slugs and snails

Worm Control by Novartis (Milbemax) and Bayer (Advocate)

Insurance by PetPlan - agreed

Bones - can't argue but why not go the full hog and do the RMB diet courtesy of Tom Lonsdale

Beds - can't argue, we sell a good range though at a lot less

Transport - can't argue

+ Vaccines courtesy of Pfizer (Duramune) - when you can get it, but go for a 12 week finish

Bonfire night sedation courtesy of VetPlus

Shampoo courtesy of Vetruus

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Rob Davis — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:03:48 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Transport by H. R. Owen [/quote]

This mode of transport may be inappropriate until peeing and crapping are under control!

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 17:50:48 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Royal Canin recommended and supplied by your local vet perhaps?[/quote]

Well, Laurence is the Royal Warrant Holder, so I'll talk to him about that next week.

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Bob Russell — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 17:34:53 GMT

Royal Canin recommended and supplied by your local vet perhaps?

Proper flea control that kills fleas - can also be by Novartis!

Milbemax - Novartis or Panacur or Granofen or Stronghold (fleas/roundworms/ear mites) - Pfizer!

The list goes on!

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 17:20:42 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"] Aaaaaaaaaahhhh!!

We expect daily bulletins. [/quote]

Night 1. Peed on the rug, crapped on the doormat.

Day 1. Peed on the rug. Peed on the floor. Peed on the sofa.

Do I need to go on?

er ... anything else I'm going to need?

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Anne Seawright — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 17:07:29 GMT

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"]paper in the VR recently which studied the effects of early removal from the litter and[/quote]

I assume you refer to this one, although the oldest puppies in this paper were 8 weeks of age and from a pet shop so not an environment matched to a normal home environment.........

Prevalence of owner-reported behaviours in dogs separated from the litter at two different ages, L. Pierantoni, M. Albertini and F. Pirrone, Veterinary Record 2011;169:468 doi:10.1136/vr.d4967

The present study examined the prevalence of behaviours in dogs separated from the litter for adoption at different ages. Seventy adult dogs separated from their dam and littermates and adopted between the ages of 30 and 40 days were compared with 70 adult dogs that had been taken from the litter for adoption at two months. Owners were asked to complete a questionnaire eliciting information on whether their dog exhibited potentially problematic behaviours when in its usual environment. Binary logistic regression analysis was performed to investigate whether the age at which the dog was separated from the litter might predispose it to developing undesirable behaviours. The odds of displaying destructiveness, excessive barking, fearfulness on walks, reactivity to noises, toy possessiveness, food possessiveness and attention-seeking were significantly greater for the dogs that had been removed from the litter earlier during the socialisation period. In addition, dogs purchased from a pet shop at 30 to 40 days of age were reported to exhibit some of the listed behaviours with a significantly higher frequency than dogs purchased from a pet shop at two months. No significant differences were observed with dogs obtained from other types of sources. The dogs in the youngest age group (18 to 36 months) had a higher probability of displaying destructiveness and tail chasing. These findings indicate that, compared with dogs that remained with their social group for 60 days, dogs that had been separated from the litter earlier were more likely to exhibit potentially problematic behaviours, especially if they came from a pet shop.

From a behavioural point of view, as with everything in behaviour, there is no one answer fits all. It will depend on the environment and socialisation experiences at the breeders and at the new home and whether they will match one another. For example, if puppies are going to a home environment similar to the breeding environment then it would be beneficial for them to stay with mother and littermates for more than 8 weeks of age, however, if the environment at the breeders is very different (e.g. puppies born in rehoming shelters) or barren (which will result in the socialisation period being shorter as they are not being stimulated) then rehome at about 7-8 weeks so they have experiences of the environment they will be expected to live in for as long as possible during their socialisation period. Also the personality of the individual puppy, the mother (can learn bad habits as well as good), the littermates, and the behaviour/presence of any humans/other species in the environments will all have an influence.

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Cat Henstridge — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:15:40 GMT

[quote user="David Beattie"]

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"] I thought the evidence was now very strong for the pup staying with the litter and bitch until 8 weeks old to learn important social skills.[/quote]

Is this because someone else of this opinion told you this or because you have seen such evidence.

[/quote]

Hi,

I have spoken to many behaviourists who feel the lessons a pup learns in the final couple of weeks are vital to being a balanced individual. However, I think there was a paper in the VR recently which studied the effects of early removal from the litter and it was shown to be detrimental. Perhaps someone with a BVA subscription could post the abstract?

Cat

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:27:44 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Daisy Guthrie, a cockapoo rehomed last night at 7 weeks 3 days. I'm not really sure who's most excited about the new arrival - my children or my wife![/quote]

Aaaaaaaaaahhhh!!

We expect daily bulletins.

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:34:24 GMT

Daisy Guthrie, a cockapoo rehomed last night at 7 weeks 3 days. I'm not really sure who's most excited about the new arrival - my children or my wife!

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Anonymous — Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:27:04 GMT

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"]Back to the original question...[/quote]

Thanks Cat

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"]I am amazed the APBC support rehoming pups from 6 weeks old[/quote]

I don't know if the APBC has a collective policy as such (I suspect it's members will vary widely in opinion themselves), but this quote is from the author invited to write the first chapter in the 'The APBC Book of Companion Animal Behaviour' (2010) and I don't feel I have lifted it in any way out of context (I can type out a wider section putting the quote in its immediate context if you like?)

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"] I thought the evidence was now very strong for the pup staying with the litter and bitch until 8 weeks old to learn important social skills.[/quote]

Is this because someone else of this opinion told you this or because you have seen such evidence. I am certainly not aware of the 'very strong' evidence. Indeed, the limited evidence I'm familiar with suggested that rehoming prior to 8 weeks is a better idea. I therefore don't find it depressing that the breeders you deal with don't keep pups until 8 weeks of age - I'm somewhere between ambivalent and pleased at this.

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:19:48 GMT

[quote user="Judith Joyce"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] it wasn't just my anecdotes, it was the correlation of information from several other vets throughout the country who had also seen vaccine breakdowns but had chosen not to talk about it publically (possibly for fear of ridicule!)[/quote]

Then publish it.

Several journals will be interested in publishing that data, for example JSAP and Vet Record.

Malcolm N

[/quote]

The data isn't correlated methodically as when I started out on this crusade I had no intention of publishing it. Vet Times invited me to write an article on canine parvovirus around the time I was digging around and I threw in the bits which have been highlighted in this forum in that article. Vet Record and JSAP are not interested unless it is peer reviewed and scrupulously cross referenced, I neither have the time nor the inclination for that so my contribution remains anecdotal, Prof Hal Thompson's and the Pratelli study do not. Take it or leave it.

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Cat Henstridge — Tue, 15 Nov 2011 18:57:35 GMT

Back to the original question...

[quote user="David Beattie"]"To maximise the chance of the puppy forming a suitable maintenance set and coping with the world beyond the breeder's environment puppies should be homed as soon as it is allowed, which in the UK means from six weeks." Jan Hoole PhD DipCABC (from 'The APBC Book of Companion Animal Behaviour' edited by David Appleby MSc CCAB, 2010)[/quote]

I am amazed the APBC support rehoming pups from 6 weeks old, I thought the evidence was now very strong for the pup staying with the litter and bitch until 8 weeks old to learn important social skills. I certainly always recommend it but the number of breeders who actually keep them until 8 weeks is depressingly low.

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 15 Nov 2011 18:22:51 GMT

Our best dog ever was rehomed at approximately 6 days old via a cardboard box and a skip.

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Judith Joyce — Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:40:48 GMT

Then publish it.

Several journals will be interested in publishing that data, for example JSAP and Vet Record.

Malcolm N

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Claire Fisher — Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:36:00 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="James Laidlaw"][quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[/quote] When do you recommend socialisation starts if not finishing vaccinations until 12 weeks? I think I'd recommend 7-8 weeks to home and get vaccines done at 8 and 10 weeks then get socialised as early as possible.

[/quote]

Clearly you haven't seen puppies with parvovirus at 5 months following a 10 week finish James, or read my reports on this, or if you think I speak a load of male bovine faeces done your own investigation, There is clear evidence that up to 20% of pups will fail to respond adequately to a vaccination course completed before 12 weeks and this is not a bee in just my bonnet it has been backed at the very highest levels of academia and by whistle blowing sources within the veterinary pharmaceutical industry. And as Michael suggests there are plenty of opportunities for puppies to socialise without risking a 10 week finish. Ideally they should stay with their mother and littermates until 10-12 weeks to socialise properly and benefit from the mother role model, they then have a month to socialise and habituate happily into their new environment.

[/quote]

We have had more than 1 dog with parvo at 9 months following a 12 week finish. We now recommend 8 and 10 weeks with a parvo vaccine at 16 weeks.

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:13:52 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]Martin, Thanks for the info. Is there any info to show if the 12 week finish would improve things (or 14, or 16), or is the 80-90% failure rate inherent in the manufacture? Also, I would like to state my forthcoming removal from any intrest in the star ratings. I didn't award you 1 star for your previous post, although I feel it may look like I did. James

[/quote]

I presume you read it as 10-20% failure rate not 80-90 and you just had a typo moment James! Industry standard is apparently to achieve a minimum requirement of >80-90% efficacy which is a pretty woeful admission at the best of times. There is no doubt that the problem is residual maternally derived antibody which causes a significant percentage of vaccinations at 10 weeks to fail to 'break through' , this percentage has fallen dramatically by 12 weeks and is probably then into the realms of the few that will always fail to respond. I'm not aware of any companies that routinely advise a third dose at 14-16 weeks but this is a belt and braces approach one might like to adopt and if my memory serves me correctly is advised by the Vaccinations Guidelines Group but give me a red star if I'm wrong! There is of course a special case for black and tan breeds notably Rottweilers which probably have a genetic deficiency in their immune system.

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Bob Russell — Tue, 15 Nov 2011 09:44:03 GMT

A well socialised 6 week old puppy will bounce into a new home, take it over (and probably destroy parts of it!).

A poorly socialised 6 week old puppy needs a good home ASAP before more damage is done!

A puppy from an industrial breeder that gets limited contact with people is IMO bound to have more problems adapting to a new home, whatever the age! The puppy brought up with the rough and tumble of family life can generally be homed at almost any age.

Our GSD came to us at 14 weeks old and is the most unbelievable family dog. He is almost bomb proof, adores children (playthings not to eat!) but does scream the house down if you try to remove even the smallest knot from his fur! He was brought up in a family environment for the first 14 weeks.

To work out the ideal rehoming age you need to look at where they are coming from. I don't think there is an optimum age as such.

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 14 Nov 2011 21:08:49 GMT

However fascinating this debate over vaccination protocols, it has little to do with the subject of the thread. I'm all for subject drift usually, but some of these posts seem to be implying that the age to re-home is decided by vaccination.

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

James Laidlaw — Mon, 14 Nov 2011 19:42:31 GMT

Martin, Thanks for the info. Is there any info to show if the 12 week finish would improve things (or 14, or 16), or is the 80-90% failure rate inherent in the manufacture? Also, I would like to state my forthcoming removal from any intrest in the star ratings. I didn't award you 1 star for your previous post, although I feel it may look like I did. James

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 14 Nov 2011 19:32:09 GMT

[quote user="Judith Joyce"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] a 20% failure rate[/quote]

Failure as in failure to pass this particular test or failure as in failure to protect the patient against disease??

I might have missed it but I don't recall any recent papers describing disease in a population of vaccinated, client owned dogs. Can you give the reference? We vaccinate a lot of dogs and see a reasonable amount of [confirmed] parvo and some distemper. However, we use a 10 week finish and don't recognise a problem. What are we missing?

Malcolm N

[/quote]

I don't think we should be playing games with numbers, whether its 5% or 20% if you're the owner of that dog it is scant consolation. The (up to) 20% figure is from inside information within the pharmaceutical industry, the source of which I am (for obvious reasons) unable to reveal, who actually quoted that vaccine are produced to 80-90% efficacy but did not clarify if this was failure in the field or failure to pass tests. The Pratelli study in Clinical & Diagnostic Laboratory Immunology p612-615 May 2001 (admittedly not recent) demonstrated similar figures for dogs failing to achieve what was considered to be protective levels of neutralising antibodies against CPV2b virus when they had been shown to have protective levels on against CPV2 virus on the HI test. Vaccine companies, for some reason I will leave you to figure out for yourself, published the HI test results but not Nt antibody results in their data. As far as I'm aware there are very few challenge studies, Fort Dodge undertook one (sorry no reference) but it was on low numbers of dogs and IMO likely to be statistically skewed. This evidence was backed by Hal Thompson (Vet Record p570 October 21 2006).

You're right there are no recent papers on disease in vaccinated, client owned dogs probably because no-one has officially correlated any data. My article in Vet Times May 15 2006 was anecdotal but it wasn't just my anecdotes, it was the correlation of information from several other vets throughout the country who had also seen vaccine breakdowns but had chosen not to talk about it publically (possibly for fear of ridicule!) but if anecdotal reports don't get out then no-one is alerted. Rob's information above illustrates this. Vaccine companies that still advocate a 12 week finish, most notably Virbac and Merial, are concerned that there is lack of field evidence that a 10 week finish does not negatively impact on the immunity of the population.

As suggested previously this is historical information but I have yet to been given confidence that the situation has improved. Perhaps if an industry member responsible for vaccine production is a member of this forum they would like to challenge me on this, they have conspicuously failed to do so previously over the span of five years.

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Rob Davis — Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:24:24 GMT

Anecdote alert!

I agree with Martin - we had 3 or 4 puppies around 4 years ago which contracted parvovirus at around 4-7 months old following vaccination at 8 and 10 weeks with nobivac (including one of my own). Long discussions with intervet ensued, and resulted in us changing our recommendations to doing the second vaccination at 12 weeks (or a 16 week parvo vaccination if doing at 10 weeks). At the time intervet suggested to us that around 5% of puppies failed to mount an adequate immune response at 10 weeks owing to the presence of maternal antibodies (I notice that Martin is suggesting a much higher percentage).

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Bob Russell — Mon, 14 Nov 2011 14:54:36 GMT

Not that long ago Virbac vets in France were recommending a 12 weeks finish even with the re-badged Nobivac vaccine that they market in the UK. they were quite satisfied that there was still a significant level of maternal antibodies, capable of blocking the parvo element at 10 weeks.

Not sure if this is still their view.

Re: Age to rehome new puppy?

Judith Joyce — Mon, 14 Nov 2011 13:49:06 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] a 20% failure rate[/quote]

Failure as in failure to pass this particular test or failure as in failure to protect the patient against disease??

Malcolm N