Suspect botulism toxicity, could it come from compost?

Re: Suspect botulism toxicity, could it come from compost?

Richard Fox — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 12:31:50 GMT

I was using the HGE term to describe the suspected Clostridial perfringens (not parvo as I would have said parvo) / E.Coli, Salm infectious disease Wynne. I to have seen parvo clinically and many times on PM and histo (very recently infact - had a cat on PM last week) and do I don't think it is this - they tend to have blood stained watery D+. Melena means bleeding. Bleeding is caused in the GI tract by neoplasia, coagulopathy or necrosis of the mucosal barrier (what ever the cause)?

Anyway I stand by my last comment of infectious, toxic or ischaemic :)

Re: Suspect botulism toxicity, could it come from compost?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 11:35:28 GMT

If not botulism-what about some other clostridial disease ?

Wynne

Re: Suspect botulism toxicity, could it come from compost?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 11:33:33 GMT

Clinical presentation doesn't make me think HGE and I saw Parvo in the early 80s when it was an epidemic

Wynne

Re: Suspect botulism toxicity, could it come from compost?

Richard Fox — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 20:49:12 GMT

How about HGE - a lot of diseases in terminal stages may present as weakness and ataxia? - My main concern would be the melena - botulism wouldn't cause melena nor would a primary neuro disease or am I missing something - toxic, ischaemic or infectious would be my thoughts :)

Re: Suspect botulism toxicity, could it come from compost?

Virginia Campbell — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 17:32:37 GMT

Sorry, should've said, syringing the ones that were unable to drink and themselves. Didn't get any so bad they could not swallow at all but this happens to cattle sometimes. The botulism that we see in cattle here in Northern Ireland is usually due to litter from chicken sheds being spread on the fields or dropped there by crows and foxes scavenging from a neighbouring chicken farm. Most chicken litter will contain a few trampled in carcases. If it is botulism, I think your prime suspects of pigeon or compost are good ideas.

Re: Suspect botulism toxicity, could it come from compost?

Virginia Campbell — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 17:28:04 GMT

My only experience of (suspected, unconfirmed due to lack of funds) botulism was in a pack of hounds. Fairly rapid onset flaccid, ascending paralysis. The typical presentation was: looking a bit wobbly behind in the morning, off hindlegs in the afternoon, off fronts by the following morning. The most severely affected were affected first, the least severely affected only started showing signs a couple of days later and didn't go completely off their legs. The huntsman shot the first one without seeking vet attention as he thought whatever she had, it would not come right; but as other hounds went off their legs decided to get help. All the others (half a dozen that I saw; a few more less severely affected at the kennels) survived with only injectable synulox to ward off aspiration pneumonia, and huntsman + helper syringing electrolytes into the ones that were unable to swallow. They recovered within a few days. Suspected cause was butcher's waste containing chicken that had been left out in the heat. Not sure about how good the chicken was...whether it was offcuts, or rejected batch chicken.

For what it's worth. Would tell your owner to get a compost bin so the labs can't get into it.

Re: Suspect botulism toxicity, could it come from compost?

Bob Russell — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 13:52:06 GMT

[quote user="SteveOwen"]

Why on Earth would you bother getting a seagull with botulism to survive? Certainly not in the interests of the seagull to suffer during recovery - much better euthanased for all concerned surely?

[/quote]

The last one we had continued to eat and attack everything around. It just could not walk! Not sure the seagull would agree with the euthanasia bit as it flies back onto the Solent. It is nearly fit enough for this. It was a Herring Gull and feisty with it. Given the choice between competent nursing and a black bag I think i would go for the nursing!

Re: Suspect botulism toxicity, could it come from compost?

SteveOwen — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 13:37:12 GMT

Generally we make pets better because they have an owner attached, and we make a judgement (not necessarily right) that it is "worth" the animal suffering for a short while if it is to become well again. However, and I think this was covered in a recent thread, I am against a lot of what is done to sustain life at all costs these days. A lot of what I saw at vet school makes me shudder thinking about the awful welfare. The welfare of farm animals is so much better than the average pet looked after by a vet school. Just think of the prosecutions of farmers if farm animals had to suffer what we put some pets through.

Re: Suspect botulism toxicity, could it come from compost?

Clive Ansell — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 13:26:25 GMT

[quote user="SteveOwen"]

Why on Earth would you bother getting a seagull with botulism to survive? Certainly not in the interests of the seagull to suffer during recovery - much better euthanased for all concerned surely?

[/quote]

Fair point. On the same scale, why do we strive to keep cats and dogs alive with terminal illnesses and aggressively malignant cancers, when from a purely welfare viewpoint euthanasia has to be the only or preferred option?

Re: Suspect botulism toxicity, could it come from compost?

SteveOwen — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 13:16:50 GMT

Why on Earth would you bother getting a seagull with botulism to survive? Certainly not in the interests of the seagull to suffer during recovery - much better euthanased for all concerned surely?

Re: Suspect botulism toxicity, could it come from compost?

Bob Russell — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 13:10:33 GMT

We see botulism in seagulls. Our birdman is very good at getting these to survive. Symptoms are a result of the toxin so I suppose a dog eating carrion may take in some of the toxin. Any blown cans of dog food? Infection via wounds can happen but I would suspect this would be incredibly rare.

I am not sure if you measure antibodies to C. botulinum. The toxins can be detected.

The toxin causes paralysis, generally progressive. Myaesthenia Gravis may be another on the differentials list!

Sorry dealt with above - did not notice! A lot of years ago I worked in a 'bot' lab but that was mainly mice!

Re: Suspect botulism toxicity, could it come from compost?

Clive Ansell — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 12:39:03 GMT

I have seen cases of botulism in wild birds, mainly Canada geese, from the municipal parks in Birmingham. They would typically present in an advanced state with generalised flaccid paralysis, and would be euthanased. Most cases were confirmed positive on blood tests sent to the VLA, not sure if that was for the toxin itself or for antibodies?

link

Re: Suspect botulism toxicity, could it come from compost?

Mark Lowrie — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 12:12:43 GMT

To me, the dog sounds most likely to have suffered a neuromuscular disease (i.e. lower motor neuron signs of progressive weakness → flaccid paralysis → respiratory arrest). The only thing that doesn’t fit too well with this in your description is the ataxia (if the dog was ataxic i.e. crossing its legs when it walked) and the obtundation (suggesting a brain problem). Therefore a spinal/brain problem is more likely. However, if it was just a weakness (rather than an ataxia) with decreased tone in all four legs and lethargy then I would consider a neuromuscular problem.

The most likely cause for a progressive neuromuscular disease in a dog would be idiopathic polyradiculoneuritis. However, botulism is a possibility (v v rare in the UK) and myasthenia gravis could do this. Had you performed chest x-rays? I wonder if the salivation was secondary to dysphagia and megaoesophagus. The history of eating a dead pigeon is probably a red herring. Having said this, any neuromuscular disease could potentially cause these signs so we will never know the cause.

If this was idiopathic polyradiculoneuritis then the prognosis is variable – usually supportive care is enough unless the patient is severely affected (as in this case) in which case respiratory arrest occurs and without ventilation (which I personally do not recommend) there is nothing further that can be done. So rest assured that the outcome would have been unlikely to be different even if we had obtained a diagnosis. Hope this helps.

Re: Suspect botulism toxicity, could it come from compost?

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 06 Nov 2011 22:52:36 GMT

Melena and salavation don't go with botulism. Never seen a case myself but I understood they are weak but bight. Think it's supposed to be ascending, back end then front.

Re: Suspect botulism toxicity, could it come from compost?

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 06 Nov 2011 22:41:32 GMT

Had an 11 month old dog die after eating a single 'red mushroom' this week.....any chance it has eaten any?