Triz EDTA discontinued?

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

Catherine Gurney — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 19:00:14 GMT

We can't keep meeting like this !

Have sent you a post on our other thread so have a look there. Good to talk to you and thanks for a great discussion !

Cathy

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

SteveOwen — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 18:57:19 GMT

As I said, the first and third papers do, the second doesn't. It was about EDTA combined with AG, not EDTA. Not sure why you included that, but hey.

You didn't say what the product is intended to be used for? Sadly I won't be going to London Vet Show.

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

Catherine Gurney — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 18:50:01 GMT

Hi Steve,

Your question was : Please explain as my understanding of the mechanism of action of both actives would not indicate any potentiation.

The papers I have sent you relate to the potentiation of Chlorhexidine by TrisEDTA, as you said your understanding of the mechanism of action of both actives would not indicate any potentiation. They are not my papers, and I am not sure why you feel the need to be disparaging about my response, but if you are going to London Vet Show, do come and see us on our stand, as would be good to meet you and talk more there.

Cathy

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

SteveOwen — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 18:06:38 GMT

[quote user="Catherine Gurney"]

0 false 18 pt 18 pt 0 0 false false false

1. EDTA increases the activity of chlorhexidine digluconate against bacteria “The increased bactericide activity was obtained with the addition of a chelating agent (EDTA) and a buffer solution (Tris) which, at low concentrations of chlorexidine (0.01%), are effective against Escherichia coli, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Proteus mirabilis and Streptococcus faecalis”. Harper WE, 1983, Simple additives to increase the activity of chlorhexidine dicluconate against urinary pathogens. Paraplegia Apr; 21 (2), 86-93

0 false 18 pt 18 pt 0 0 false false false

2. Action of Tris EDTA in potentiating the antibiotic activity “tris EDTA binds the metallic ions (Mg2+, Ca2+), which compete with the aminoglycosides for the cellular membrane receptors, these receptors allow the antibiotics to enter the bacteria.” Sparks TA, Kemp DT, Wooley RE, Gibbs PS. Antimicrobial effect of combinations of EDTA-Tris and amikacin or neomycin on the microorganisms associated with otitis externa in dogs. Vet Res Commum. 1994 18(4):241-9

3. http://www.dechra-us.com/Files/dechraUSA/downloads/Articles/Effect%20of%20chlorhexidene-EDTA-Tris%20against%20bacterial%20isolates%20from%20clinical%20specimens.pdf

[/quote]

Interesting. Your second paper doesn't answer my question, I was aware of the potentiating effect of EDTA with aminoglycosides, but your first and second references, although not at all relevant to dog ears (!), are interesting, thank you. Odd that the first comes from a journal called "Paraplegia"!

So...what exactly are you recommending this product is used for?

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:50:02 GMT

[quote user="Catherine Gurney"]

Hi Evelyn,

Under UK legislation, veterinary companies cannot make medicinal claims for their products unless they have a marketing authorisation.

However, there are a lot of products currently being sold successfully on the UK vet market which do not have, or need, a marketing authorisation.

Cathy

[/quote]

Do you make a therapeutic claim for the product or not? It seems to me from your next post

[quote user="Catherine Gurney"]

0 false 18 pt 18 pt 0 0 false false false

3. http://www.dechra-us.com/Files/dechraUSA/downloads/Articles/Effect%20of%20chlorhexidene-EDTA-Tris%20against%20bacterial%20isolates%20from%20clinical%20specimens.pdf

[/quote]

that you do.

Or is it maybe like those herbal things where you effectively make a therapeutic claim but just about avoid doing it in so many words?

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

Catherine Gurney — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:40:25 GMT

1. EDTA increases the activity of chlorhexidine digluconate against bacteria "The increased bactericide activity was obtained with the addition of a chelating agent (EDTA) and a buffer solution (Tris) which, at low concentrations of chlorexidine (0.01%), are effective against Escherichia coli, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Proteus mirabilis and Streptococcus faecalis". Harper WE, 1983, Simple additives to increase the activity of chlorhexidine dicluconate against urinary pathogens. Paraplegia Apr; 21 (2), 86-93

2. Action of Tris EDTA in potentiating the antibiotic activity "tris EDTA binds the metallic ions (Mg2+, Ca2+), which compete with the aminoglycosides for the cellular membrane receptors, these receptors allow the antibiotics to enter the bacteria." Sparks TA, Kemp DT, Wooley RE, Gibbs PS. Antimicrobial effect of combinations of EDTA-Tris and amikacin or neomycin on the microorganisms associated with otitis externa in dogs. Vet Res Commum. 1994 18(4):241-9

3. http://www.dechra-us.com/Files/dechraUSA/downloads/Articles/Effect%20of%20chlorhexidene-EDTA-Tris%20against%20bacterial%20isolates%20from%20clinical%20specimens.pdf

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

Catherine Gurney — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:20:12 GMT

Hi Evelyn,

Under UK legislation, veterinary companies cannot make medicinal claims for their products unless they have a marketing authorisation.

However, there are a lot of products currently being sold successfully on the UK vet market which do not have, or need, a marketing authorisation.

Cathy

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

SteveOwen — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:03:19 GMT

[quote user="Catherine Gurney"]

TrizEDTA potentiates the Chlorhexidine

[/quote]

Please explain as my understanding of the mechanism of action of both actives would not indicate any potentiation.

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 16:38:02 GMT

[quote user="Catherine Gurney"]It is because the levels of the active ingredients within the formulations are less than those needed for a veterinary marketing authorisation. However, as you are aware, it is the combination of all the ingredients in the formulation which makes a product work rather than any individual component. [/quote]

Huh?

You make a therapeutic claim for the product............. or don't you?

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

Catherine Gurney — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:08:32 GMT

Hi Evelyn,

It is because the levels of the active ingredients within the formulations are less than those needed for a veterinary marketing authorisation. However, as you are aware, it is the combination of all the ingredients in the formulation which makes a product work rather than any individual component. If you are going to London Vet Show, we have a stand there so do come and see us and we can talk some more, or if you need any further information don't hesitate to get in touch. Cathy

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:39:08 GMT

[quote user="Catherine Gurney"] none of the products from Vetruus need a veterinary license[/quote]

Why not?

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

Catherine Gurney — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:57:13 GMT

Hello everyone and some interesting posts! It is nice to see that there is already some discussion about our products as we only launched in September and so we are very new, both as a company and also with our products. To be clear, none of the products from Vetruus need a veterinary license ( this is the same as the Dechra Dermapet products ) and so it is not correct to say they are fully licensed. Regarding the use of Chlorhexidine in ears, it works best in combination with Triz-EDTA and so when used together, the TrizEDTA potentiates the Chlorhexidine, which means the level of Chlorhexidine can be low. Vetruus have a number of products for ears which have Chlorhexidine as part of the formulation, so too much to go in to in this space, but suffice to say, Otodine is the only patented formulation ( Patent No. PCT/IT2004/000627 ) on the market which contains TrizEDTA and Chlorhexidine. Regarding the reliability of the products, ICF has been selling products in Europe for a very long time and so has built up a lot of clinical data on the products, so do get in touch if anyone would like some more information ! Cathy. MD - Vetruus Ltd.

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

Rosie_Skinner — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 19:40:40 GMT

Thanks for your help Steve! it's good to know that there are a few other options out there.

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

SteveOwen — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 18:03:18 GMT

Only trying to be helpful :(

You were disappointed. I thought I would point out that maybe, TrisEDTA isn't the best thing since sliced bread after all, so maybe you wouldn't be so disappointed after all!

But it's not discontinued, so by all means carry on using it. I on the otherhand will try to be evidence-based, and would never go near the stuff :)

Have to be honest, it ruined my day when you revealed that it hasn't been discontinued after all!

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

Rosie_Skinner — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:41:55 GMT

It did get a little out of hand, I thought I asked a fairly innocent question! The tricky to fix cases that we all commonly see such as multi drug resistant pseudomonas in ears with ruptured tympani, are always going to be a little controversial I suppose.

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:08:18 GMT

[quote user="Rosie Skinner"]

Back to the original post, I have been in touch with Dechra and Centaur and triz edta has not been discontinued, centaur made an error. It turns out someone ticked the 'discontinued' box on their stock computer. Thanks for all the suggestions of alternatives!

[/quote]

Trust you to go and spoil a good argument by saying it wasn't necessary in the first place Rosie.

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

Rosie_Skinner — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 15:13:45 GMT

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

James Laidlaw — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:47:08 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]I tend to still take and hold swans on initial presentation[/quote]

Do you have permission from Her Maj - I think you'll find they all belong to her...?

[/quote] She's cool with it. Actually she is distracted by inappropriate conduct from the Aussie PM at present. ;)

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

SteveOwen — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:32:47 GMT

Martin - agree there can be point to doing cytology if you are potentially going to use narrow spectrum treatment. I just disagree on point of doing culture, for two reasons mentioned - concentration issue and lack of consistency between swabs that has been shown - the population changes on a daily basis!

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

SteveOwen — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:29:37 GMT

Bob - if you want to use 'antiseptic rather than antibiotic' - take a look at the study I referenced earlier: Antimicrobial activity appeared to be associated with the presence of isopropyl alcohol, parachlorometaxylenol and a low pH. There are already cleaners in the market with antimicrobial activity. This study objectivrly compares them. All have been used for years ao we know are of low risk. Why rosk the unknown in terms of both efficacy and safety? Where is the evidence for this new CHX cleaner? Is it even likely to have any activity? It is my understanding that if a product is to have CHX at any kind of therapeutic level then it must be licensed. Finally, if it isn't licensed, there is no requirement for reporting SARs, so we wouldn't know if it was causing problems.

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:00:31 GMT

[quote user="SteveOwen"]

Exactly right Julian - no point doing sensitivities for otitis.

[/quote]

I'd agree on first visit but I always take a swab and do a stained smear: if is coccoids or yeasts then most ear drops will work if its rods you're more likely to be swabbing for culture/sensitivity next time . It is true that there is not a strict correlation between a culture on a plate and in-vivo treatment but an MIC test will give a better idea and if there is nothing off the shelf in ear drops to do the job you can make up your own patented drops from an antibiotic it is sensitive to rather than give them systemically.

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

Bob Russell — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 11:40:44 GMT

[quote user="SteveOwen"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

The Vetruus product is fully licensed

[/quote]

Really? I can't find mention of any licensed products from Vetruus on the VMD website....

[/quote]

Hmm! Checking the advertising bumph for Otidine there seems to be little info about licensing so i take that back. It seems that it is a patented product rather than licensed so this may be why TrisEDTA has been taken off the market. I stand corrected.

At least in theory I would prefer to use an antiseptic for a mixed infection rather than antibiotics so chlorhexidine would seem ideal if it is safe! Has anyone used Otidine yet and if they have has there been any problem with it?

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

bob lehner — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:32:54 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]I tend to still take and hold swans on initial presentation[/quote]

Do you have permission from Her Maj - I think you'll find they all belong to her...?

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

SteveOwen — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 09:52:00 GMT

Hmm...yeah...that's the other problem with swabbing ears. The bacterial population changes very frequently!

Re: Triz EDTA discontinued?

James Laidlaw — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 08:20:34 GMT

I tend to still take and hold swans on initial presentation invariably if pus is present, usually only sending if things don't improve by second visit within a week. Then it's not affected by the meds that have been used when you want to send it. Normally I don't send on first visit either.