xylazine/ketamine in cats

Re: xylazine/ketamine in cats

gabriel wertheimer — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 22:20:35 GMT

Once again, thanks for the replies......I just got back from Greece. Bit of a mess over there with the riots/strikes all the time.

rompun/ket at 0.1ml/kg worked a treat. We had a couple that needed a slight top up from underestimating the weights but in 5 days, managed to do 73 cat speys, 29 castrates and a quick enucleation thrown in too! All cats got through their ops fine, there was plenty of projectile vomitting to clear up. I'd really recommend it to anyone who wants to shave a few minutes off their surgical time although it is pretty hard work at the end of the day!

Re: xylazine/ketamine in cats

Clive Ansell — Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:45:14 GMT

[quote user="Gareth Dowdeswell"]

Ooh think I'm off to do the same thing in November! Not sure how noble it is, saw it more as a cheap way to see some of Greece...

[/quote]

Go for it, I really enjoyed my time there in 2001. It is very flexible with time and days off to explore and do your own thing. Flights were paid for, and all accommodation and most meals (3 most days) were provided. Their work ethic and culture differ from ours; a 0900 start is anything from 0900 to 1600, or to not at all. plenty of breaks for coffee (fresh, none of that instant sh*t), cakes, biscuits. lunch is usually huge with several carafes of wine flowing (Length of cat spey incision is directly proportional to number of carafes consumed), long afternoon siesta, then not too much in the evening other than getting ready for dinner.

Re: xylazine/ketamine in cats

Virginia Campbell — Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:24:32 GMT

[quote user="gabriel wertheimer"] Do most of you just go for the forceps across the tip and scissor snips approach?![/quote]

Yes, try to remember to put the forceps on and tip the ear before you start the spay, so by the time you finish the forceps have been on long enough for it not to bleed.

Re: xylazine/ketamine in cats

Gareth Dowdeswell — Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:48:56 GMT

Ooh think I'm off to do the same thing in November! Not sure how noble it is, saw it more as a cheap way to see some of Greece...

My first job (only 2 years ago!) was still using Rompun/Ketamine for all it's cat neuters, though anything older was getting Propofol. Definately agree with above comments you get 20-30 min of good surgical anaesthesia. Doesn't tend to work as well if it goes subcut rather than IM.

Re: xylazine/ketamine in cats

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:45:07 GMT

I did what the boss did,because it wasn't a combination taught at Uni-and back then (bad old days ) some practices didn't have gaseous anaesthesia (or nurses-mind you no-one had nurses then,unless they employed a SRN who had decided on a career change ) The boss said "don't overdo the rompun, as that's what kills them " I'm glad things have moved on

Wynne

Re: xylazine/ketamine in cats

Vet2Vet — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 23:49:12 GMT

Yeah, *way* too much ketamine and not enough xylazine. The ket makes them twitchy.

I remember for the average 6 month say 2 kg - 2.3 kg 0.2 ml rompun and 0.2 ml ketamine gives about 20-25 minutes .

Then domitor came along and 0.2 domitor and 0.2 ketamine fine for the same size cat . The domitor was considered better because it was easier to get atipamazole than yohimbine .

As stated above many cats get sick with Xylazine which is probably a plus because they get sick before becoming sedated . Relaxation was good too for surgery .

Re: xylazine/ketamine in cats

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 23:37:07 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Back in the bad old days I used to use 0.5 ml ketami ne and 0.1 ml rompun for a cat spay.Didn't like it, muscles used to twitch when I incised, so not certain if fully unconcious, but it was all that was available in many practices 30 years ago. I wouldn't dream of doing so now unless in a situation like you have in Greece-when I suppose it's better than repeated pregnancies, and drowning unwanted kittens, or poisoning adults

Good luck,and my admiration for you-I think we all ought to congratulate you. Maybe I'll do the same for a few weeks each year after retiring

Wynne

[/quote]

Yeah, *way* too much ketamine and not enough xylazine. The ket makes them twitchy.

Re: xylazine/ketamine in cats

gabriel wertheimer — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 23:10:29 GMT

Thanks everyone for the swift replies. First time Ive posted on here and cant believe the speed of you all! It is with the Greek cat welfare society, getting the last bit of sun before the snow starts here!

one other thing...tips on ear tipping! Only done it before with cautery and dont have that out there either. Do most of you just go for the forceps across the tip and scissor snips approach?! Seems the logical option to me!

Thanks ginny....moving to a TB free area was the best career choice Ive ever made. As for the rugby..............some of those boys could do with a career change too :)

Re: xylazine/ketamine in cats

Virginia Campbell — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 15:34:54 GMT

PS - commiserations on the rugby

Re: xylazine/ketamine in cats

Virginia Campbell — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 15:31:29 GMT

Hi Gabe,

What everyone else said about rompun+ket. I only remember it from seeing practice in 4th year, even our mixed practice in the sticks of my first job had quit using it by the time I qualified. Think is prob OK though, and i wonder if they only used to stay dopey and flat all day cos they didn't get antisedan. Stand clear of the cage or you will get puked on. Have fun in Greece, beats TB testing in the welsh border winter :-)

Ginny

Re: xylazine/ketamine in cats

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 15:03:18 GMT

lol

Re: xylazine/ketamine in cats

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:19:57 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

I spent 2 weeks in Athens and 2 weeks visiting islands staying with Greek families; outstanding hospitality, they certainly work to live rather than live to work like us in the UK. The Greek working day was about 2 1/2 hours if I remember correctly.

[/quote]

Could this be why the rest of the world is now having to bail them out?

Re: xylazine/ketamine in cats

Clive Ansell — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 10:57:49 GMT

Is it with the Greek Cat Welfare Society? I did a 4 week spell with them in 2001, it was good fun. I spent 2 weeks in Athens and 2 weeks visiting islands staying with Greek families; outstanding hospitality, they certainly work to live rather than live to work like us in the UK. The Greek working day was about 2 1/2 hours if I remember correctly.

We used mainly Xylazine and ketamine, both at 0.1ml/kg, we also had limited supplies of Metacam, Rimadyl, Vetergesic, Domitor, Antisedan (can be used to reverse xylazine too at half volume). anaesthetised and neutered 288 cats (70% speys, 30% castrations), no problems at all. No routine antibiotics used either. Plenty of helpers and 9 crush cages, all cats feral so all crush caged for injection, all weighed in cage. I would inject them, helpers would prep them and clean kits. clean newly boiled kit for each spey. mainly catgut and nylon, although I did take some vicryl and pds with me.

happy neutering

Re: xylazine/ketamine in cats

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 10:10:37 GMT

Good luck,and my admiration for you-I think we all ought to congratulate you. Maybe I'll do the same for a few weeks each year after retiring

Wynne

Re: xylazine/ketamine in cats

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:41:47 GMT

I pre-med 99% of my routine cat ops with xylazine (I would normally GA then with propofol, intubate and maintain on Isoflurane). I would tend to use medetomidine (with butorphanol) in a triple combo with ketamine but xylazine works as well so you should be fine. We tend to give all cats 0.3ml xylazine unless they're small then they get 0.2ml so that obviates you having to worry about weighing. Far from the vomiting issue being a problem I see it as an advantage - they vomit before they're anaesthetised. It is amazing (or not probably) how may supposedly starved cats throw up a ton of food!

Re: xylazine/ketamine in cats

Dagmar Steele — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:26:31 GMT

We used to spay all cats with Ket/Xyl in the old days and though I like the triple shot much better now all of them woke up ok. The vomiting is an issue, keep an eye on them especially if the don't come in fasted for 12 hrs. Sedation lasts for 1-2 hrs, fat ones take longer to wake up than the skinny types. You can use Yohimbin as an antidote for the Xylazine, don't give it earlier than 45mins after injection of Ketamine or they'll have some kind of nasty wake-up. Here in Germany there is one Vet-school where some of the profs still fancy this combination and quote it is not inferior to modern anesthetics even regarding safety. My own experience speaks a different language, they used to be very dull for the rest of the day which is something I'm not observing anymore nowadays.

Re: xylazine/ketamine in cats

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:22:17 GMT

0.1ml /kg of xylazine, 0.1ml/kd ketamine. You've got 40 minutes from injection. Pull the ketamine first, xylazine second, the xylazine cushions the ketamine a bit because it stings a bit. Weigh the crush cage before you start (trust me, you WANT a crush cage, some feral cats are nasty), then you can just pop in the cat and get the weight. Round up to the next kilo if it's between round numbers; when you try and dose to the exact weight sometimes it's not quite enough.

It's safe stuff. Even better, they don't turn any funny colors like under medetomidine. :)

Source: 3 years in Saudi Arabia, this was the only anesthesia I had (iso was available but VERY expensive).

Re: xylazine/ketamine in cats

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 23:05:04 GMT

It's all there in the ketamine data sheets

Ketaset

Vetalar

Re: xylazine/ketamine in cats

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 23:02:00 GMT

It is little a while since I used it but it used to be very common here. I'd have to go back to the formulary for the doses but it easily used to provide enough anaesthesia for a cat spay - I'd estimate 20-30 mins of GA and then a further hour of deep sedation. Airway usually remains OK - the ketamine is pretty good for that. I used to supplement with O2 but others didn't with no apparent issues. They almost always vomit with rompun so keep an eye on them after injection, especially if they are stray and therefore may have a full stomach. Also try to keep them warm - helps with recovery time.

If you can get thiopentone over there then you could use rompun pre-med followed by thio - you can then top-up if necc.

Re: xylazine/ketamine in cats

plantagenet — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 22:58:30 GMT

Used to, a long time ago and don't remember killing anything, so don't worry.

I can't remember the doses tho' - perhaps an older textbook would help. I seem to remember it lasted a long time.