Conflicting advice.

Re: Conflicting advice.

Kishor Mahind — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 21:19:58 GMT

[quote user="newgradvet"]

[quote user="Kishor Mahind"]

Already there have been successful prosecutions of breeders who have sold FCoV infected kittens, both under the UK Sale of Goods Act and also the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act. Cat breeders who sell kittens which are FCoV infected are risking prosecution.

[/quote]

Firstly I agree with the previous posts about this case.

However I am a little confused about how someone could be prosecuted for selling FCoV kittens even if histology did confirm FIP. Please corrcet me if I'm wrong and I'm sure you will , but I didn't think enough was known about FIP and its itiology to say that a breeder would have done anything wrong to sell a kitten that later devloped FIP, as long as it was "healthy" and asymptomatic at time of sale.??

[/quote]

Its not about whether the kitten gets FIP or not, its about hiding the fact that the kitten is (possibly) FCoV positive. Its like selling a product with a known fault in it and not informing the buyer about it. The breeder has to be honest and tell the buyer about the kitten's FCoV status. What I can make out is the breeder could be still sued even if the kitten doesn't get FIP but has a FCoV titre and buyer is not made aware of it (think about infecting the other cats in multi cat households). I also think ignorance (of FCoV titre) is not an excuse.

Re: Conflicting advice.

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 21:06:59 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Total agreement with Simon and Nicola How I wish Royal College would throw the book at people like this breeder who break the law by diagnosing when not on the Register

Wynne

[/quote]

You've got to report him first!

Re: Conflicting advice.

Claire McConnell — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 20:20:14 GMT

[quote user="Kishor Mahind"]

[/quote]

Firstly I agree with the previous posts about this case.

Re: Conflicting advice.

Louise6732 — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:41:00 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

[/quote]

The day we give in to pressure from charlatans known as 'breeders' and give the treatment they suggest without good clinical evidence is the day we have lost all credibility as a profession.

[/quote]

I'm in complete agreement with you Martin. It is not ok, in my opinion, to dispense any prescription medications, antibiotics or otherwise, because a layman suggests the are needed. It absolutely infuriates me when colleagues dispense antibiotics, to please owners, because 'It won't do any harm'.

Perhaps a discussion on whether careless antibiotic dispensing is harmless can be had when a friend or family member develops a multi-resistent bacterial infection

Is it any wonder our profession is being threatened with reduced antibiotic dispensing rights.

Re: Conflicting advice.

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:25:14 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

[/quote]

The day we give in to pressure from charlatans known as 'breeders' and give the treatment they suggest without good clinical evidence is the day we have lost all credibility as a profession.

Re: Conflicting advice.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 13:38:49 GMT

Total agreement with Simon and Nicola How I wish Royal College would throw the book at people like this breeder who break the law by diagnosing when not on the Register

Wynne

Re: Conflicting advice.

Nicola Lawlor — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 21:14:43 GMT

Also consider the option to offer the owner the option to refer to a specialist for a second opinion too if they are that concerned. If you have given them the option and they take it they may finally get the message, and if they don't then they may have more faith in your decisions when they realise you are quite prepared to allow someone else to look at the case and realise you have nothing to hide here.

Re: Conflicting advice.

Simon Neuhoff — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 17:42:05 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

Not sure this is the right way to go, but there is probably no harm in giving the kitten a course of synulox, then when it doesn't get better, which is very unlikely if it does have FIP, they might start to listen to you? It's just a thought, and am not sure that I would necessarily do this myself but I thought I would throw it out there?

If the breeder is registered, is it possible to speak/write to the registering council about this breeder and report your concerns? Good breeders will be outraged if their breed gets tarred with a reputation for developing FIP and one of their members is ignorant.

And regarding Diane Addie's website information, that seems a bit odd. We all know that FCoV positive doesn't directly equate to FIP positive, and FCoV is widespread.

[/quote]

I agree re your last point! I understood that FCoV is so prevalent that having a free colony would be difficult to achieve in the first instance let alone maintain.

Re the Synulox I am not sure I would do that - it is pandering to the breeder's viewpoint and giving it credence. I would attempt to educate the client properly using as much supportive material as I could get hold of. I would also advise documeneting ALL the advice, and the owner's responses to it - in detail in case it all goes legal.

Re: Conflicting advice.

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 16:32:27 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]Not sure this is the right way to go, but there is probably no harm in giving the kitten a course of synulox, then when it doesn't get better, which is very unlikely if it does have FIP, they might start to listen to you? It's just a thought, and am not sure that I would necessarily do this myself but I thought I would throw it out there? [/quote]

That's what I'd do. You can tell them but it's only worth so much breath. Do what they want (so long as kitten's welfare not compromised) and prove yourself right.

[/quote]

You'll use too little Synulox, or too much, or the wrong kind, or poison it deliberately or something.

Re: Conflicting advice.

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 16:28:55 GMT

That's what I'd do. You can tell them but it's only worth so much breath. Do what they want (so long as kitten's welfare not compromised) and prove yourself right.

Re: Conflicting advice.

Kishor Mahind — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 16:10:57 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

And regarding Diane Addie's website information, that seems a bit odd. We all know that FCoV positive doesn't directly equate to FIP positive, and FCoV is widespread.

[/quote]

I thinks what Diane means is that breeder has to let his clients know if the kitten they are buying is FCoV positive or not. That means its breeder's responsibility to either keep kittens FCoV free with good hygiene, good barrier nursing etc or let the buyer know that the kitten they are buying may or has got FCov titre.

Re: Conflicting advice.

Kate Richardson — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:52:12 GMT

And regarding Diane Addie's website information, that seems a bit odd. We all know that FCoV positive doesn't directly equate to FIP positive, and FCoV is widespread.

Re: Conflicting advice.

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:43:44 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]

If the kitten has been or going to be PTS then I would definitely do a PM so you can get absolute proof of FIP by histopathology.

[/quote]

No, because the breeder will maintain that you obviously switched the samples.

You could give the kitten back to the owner with the suggestion that they arrange their own independent post-mortem, but there's a chance there that the breeder will get in and switch samples.

So best to offer to arrange an independent post-mortem (at owner's expense of course) under strict security procedures!

Re: Conflicting advice.

Robin Grimmer — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:29:14 GMT

If the kitten has been or going to be PTS then I would definitely do a PM so you can get absolute proof of FIP by histopathology.

Re: Conflicting advice.

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:26:28 GMT

Maybe I am being over-delicate. Rest assured I wasn't worried about the breeder! :)

Re: Conflicting advice.

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:18:24 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

What kind of support will the practice give you?

[/quote]

The sort of practice that if they didn't support him presumably he wouldn't go back and work for again. If the breeder is a client I'd wash my hands of them, as for the kittens owner, you've given them your diganosis and treatment protocol if appropriate and it's up to them to take it or leave it, presumably if they want to leave it they'll go somewhere else and get the same opinion from another vet, maybe then they'll believe you. Kitten doesn't have an incomplete vaccine certificate by any chance does it?

Re: Conflicting advice.

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 14:38:52 GMT

Got to be careful washing hands here - Clive, I think I can safely assume you're still locuming. What kind of support will the practice give you?

Re: Conflicting advice.

Kishor Mahind — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 14:37:43 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

the breeder is just worried about the financial implications

[/quote]

Not just the financial but also legal implications. Read below - from Diane Addie's website

Re: Conflicting advice.

Stephen Courtney — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 14:34:33 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

catvirus.com is also another good source of information, I have directed the client to it, but they seem to want to listen to the breeder.

[/quote]

That's their privilege. but i would make it clear I would wash my hands of them.

Re: Conflicting advice.

Stephen Courtney — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 14:33:21 GMT

the breeder is just worried about the financial implications so he/she has stuffed their head up they *$$ so to speak. nothing new here, but Bob's advice to the client is spot on.

I'm not aware of any link between FeLV vaccinations and bacterial infections that need synulox - just making a comment like that shows what an irresponsible idiot the breeder is.

Re: Conflicting advice.

Clive Ansell — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 14:31:55 GMT

catvirus.com is also another good source of information, I have directed the client to it, but they seem to want to listen to the breeder.

Re: Conflicting advice.

Bob Russell — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 14:24:52 GMT

I would print out the FAB client information sheet about FIP. It describes the wet form exactly as you have done. It explains the diagnostic tests and difficulties and makes the breeder look like the ill-informed individual that he or she clearly is.

http://www.fabcats.org/owners/fip/info.html