Hibernation Guidelines

Re: Hibernation Guidelines

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 23:25:02 GMT

Ta. We have been doing the biannual BCG free tortoise health checks since the practice opened 8 years ago. It is great to think you're making a difference to a few beasties that don't usually see a vet, but it is a very long day! The regional chairman, John Thorpe, who organises them, has been running them for over 25 years! We offer our opinions for free - but obviously won't carry out any treatments beyond nail clips!!!

Re: Hibernation Guidelines

Mark Rowland — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 22:02:51 GMT

it drives you bonkers doesnt it. When my practice first opened our first post hibernation case was a redfoot kept in a garage for 6 months. It lived (God knows how). We hospitalised it for 5 1/2 months. Good luck at BCG

Re: Hibernation Guidelines

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 21:33:17 GMT

I agree with all of the above. With caring and pro-active clients, good advice is taken on board. Fortunately we are seeing more and more of this type of client.

My frustration is with clients who say "but we've fed him that way, housed him that way and hibernated him that way for the last 10 years and he's fine." Although I am perfectly aware that the tortie is dying - it's just doing it slowly - some people are really hard to convince. They think that because it eats it's 4 pieces of cucumber every day, like it always has, then it is doing fine.

Sorry - I'm ranting. Always happens when the BCG day is coming up. I'll be even worse on Saturday night when I'm told even more annoying stories. Last March, at the post-hibernation check, the best story was that their tortie had 'hibernated' in a flat cap, all wrapped up in a platic bag, for 6 months, behind the sofa in the lounge. Funnily enough it wasn't doing so well since it 'woke up'. Doh!

Re: Hibernation Guidelines

Mark Rowland — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 15:33:28 GMT

All good points:

My view is that tortoises that hibernate in the wild probably benefit from a period of hibernation in captivity. There is evidence that reproductive performance is negatively affected if they are kept awake. Should this matter in non breeding tortoises? Probably not by itself.

What concerns me is our continued manipulation of these animals without knowing the long (and I mean long) term consequences. Compared with the wild the UV levels are less and temperatures are usually less. However their plane of nutrition is far higher, affording tortoises with a more rapid growth rate in spite of other environmental factors being inappropriate. Short periods of hibernation do offer a bit of a break from this rapid growth which probably benefirs the tortoise. We try to offer supplements to help prevent growth rate related deficiences but still end up with a poor reflection of the wild state in most cases.

One of the problems is that we are dealing with a very long lived species that we have only been breeding in this country for a relatively short period of time. My advice is to try to avoid pushing on tortoises (especially the meds) and to hibernate for shortened periods. Most clients are willing to be set up to achieve this (especially as more and more clients present with young tortoises and so are aware of the need for artificial heat/UV etc.). Many opt not to hibernate for the first few years for their own reasons (usually confidence or lack of it).

So what is the "Ideal set up". Probably living in the mediterranean would be a good start! The other problem we have is that although most garden tortoises look well enough and may be eating, in fact that are suffering from chronic low UV levels and the consequences thereof, primarily lymphopaenia. Year on year recently, our summers have been poor and that accounts for these torts looking slowly less well year on year as they fail to recuperate reserves lost over excessively long hibernation periods. Tube UV lights are a poor substitute for British sun (which is a poor substitute for mediterreanean sun) and so indoors isnt that great either. Mecury vapour bulbs are better but still not ideal.

Whats the answer?

I recommend Short hibernations, housing overnight in the summer for garden torts with heat and UV (mercury vapour) supplementation to start with in the day before they go outside in the summer. A short hibernation and continue with artifical heat and UV for the remainder of the winter.

Sick tortoises or torts that are underweight or have had a significant illness that year stay awake

Hibernate as soon as the client is ready, often after a "dry run" the previous year. A dry run is to prepare as though one were going to hibernate the tort but just dont do it.

Ive probably rambled on and generated more questions than given answers. I spend a lot of time thinking about this. What I am doing at the moment seems to make sense to me though although I do try to judge each case on its own merits. Those that have been left to their own devices year on year seem to be presenting sicker at first presentation than they have been.

Hope this answers a few.

Re: Hibernation Guidelines

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 14:33:37 GMT

Don't you find that the majority of tortoise clients are completely incapable of hibernating their animals correctly? I must admit I advise overwintering in all but the most informed clients, with the idea that bad hibernation is worse than no hibernation. But that then relies on a decent vivarium.....

I am doing the BCG hibernation check ups again this weekend (we usually get approx 80 torties) and get very frustated that we see the same 'garden' torts every year, just a little bit weaker.........

Re: Hibernation Guidelines

Claire McConnell — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 14:32:14 GMT

Mark

What are your views on avoiding hibernation altogether? I am not a reptile vet but do see the odd tortoise.

A vet that saw herself as an "up and coming" herp vet once told me on ems a couple of years ago that she doesn't recommend hibernation at all unless its for breeding purposes. Her argument was that the reason they hibernate in the wild in their countries of origin is due to climatic conditions and a tortoise kept indoors during winter with ideal set up (lighting, heating, space, ventilation etc) can be kept awake well throughout the year and did not feel there were any ill consequences of this. In fact she felt she saw less problems.

I repeat I do not really see many tortoises and when I have have always suggested the standard fridge hibernation however would wonder how you would feel about the advice she gave, whether it has any merit at all or whether its just unknown (due to lack of studies etc)?

Re: Hibernation Guidelines

Mark Rowland — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:27:44 GMT

You can hibernate young tortoises, they would in the wild. Many keepers elect to keep them awake a few years before they hibernate and I dont tend to push them into it. In the wild the younger torts with their thinner shells respond more rapidly to changes in temperature which often means they wake first and have a shorter duration of hibernation. In this country it means that we have to have better control of their hibernation so the fridge method has its advantages. So In general smaller torts get a shorter wind down period and shorter hibernation period. Of course this means they will be awake when it is very cold so artificial heat and UV provision are a must.

Re: Hibernation Guidelines

Edward Jones — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:03:37 GMT

Is age a factor with hibernation?

Re: Hibernation Guidelines

Dagmar Steele — Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:24:29 GMT

count me in !

Re: Hibernation Guidelines

Mark Rowland — Wed, 14 Sep 2011 16:45:56 GMT

[quote user="Helen Wallace"]

Although possibly slightly telling that my first though on reading the post title involved pulling the duvet over my head for the winter :)

[/quote]

Wouldn't it be nice to do that though?

Re: Hibernation Guidelines

Dagmar Steele — Wed, 14 Sep 2011 12:49:54 GMT

I don't do many torts and the like, but i bet they have had better years! Anyway, I do get asked for advice now and then and even if I always tell them to ask a specialist it's good not to give complete and utter nonsense as advice if they refuse!

Re: Hibernation Guidelines

Helen Wallace — Wed, 14 Sep 2011 11:56:21 GMT

Thanks for that, Mark. It looks really useful. Although possibly slightly telling that my first though on reading the post title involved pulling the duvet over my head for the winter :)

Re: Hibernation Guidelines

Mark Rowland — Wed, 14 Sep 2011 11:49:35 GMT

You're welcome. It hasnt been that good a year for the torts this year sadly, with temps and UV levels at an all time low.

Le sigh.

Re: Hibernation Guidelines

Dagmar Steele — Wed, 14 Sep 2011 09:15:57 GMT

thank you!