diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Anthony Dennison — Sat, 13 Apr 2013 09:24:09 GMT

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Tom Lonsdale — Sat, 13 Apr 2013 05:49:18 GMT

Raw Meaty Bones: Promote Health pp 289-290

This book seeks to redress the balance somewhat, with the science of periodontal disease and immune dysfunction occupying the early chapters. Veterinary teachers, researchers, politicians and others play a role in subsequent chapters — mostly in collaboration with the pet food industry.

Several passages in the book refer to denial and suppression by the veterinary authorities. But despite their efforts some sense has emerged from the diet and disease debate. Perhaps the single most telling statement appeared in the February 1994 AVA News:

Further research is required to better define the relationship between particular diet types and oral health in dogs and cats. Those investigating small animal health problems should also take diet and diet consistency into account when researching systemic disease — possible confounding effects of diet and poor oral health must be considered in such studies.24

When writing the final chapters of this book I was keen to include up-to-date information. By coincidence, Sydney University hosted a course, delivered by experts from Britain and America, entitled ‘Immunity and Disease’.25 In a spirit of optimism I enrolled. I wanted to hear good news; how veterinary researchers are taking account of diet and diet consistency. Instead I gained the impression that from 1991 to 1999 the artificial pet food industry had tightened its grip on the veterinary mind.

During the five day course Drs Michael Day and Rance Sellon piled immunological fact upon immunological fact but never once did they raise the issue of periodontal disease, despite this being the most widespread disease of pets and, by their own criteria, mediated by the immune system. Similarly junk pet foods, which place an undue direct and indirect burden on the immune system, were not mentioned. Instead Rance Sellon spoke about the chemical components of diet which affect the immune system, without considering the source of those components. Following Rance Sellon’s comments Michael Day enthused that the pet food industry is taking an interest in, and spending large sums on, researching diet and immunity — a range of new products should soon be available.

I raised my hand and asked Michael Day if he could tell us more. No, he could not because, as he explained, he did consultancy work for one of the companies and was sworn to secrecy. Tense silence gripped the room. I pressed on, asking if he was prepared to blind us with science, in a snowstorm of information, while leaving out important facts. Artificial diets appear to be the main reason for immunological disorders in pets, I said: surely veterinarians should be researching and informing pet owners — not assisting the manufacturers? Michael Day paused, muttered ‘No comment’, and gestured to Rance Sellon for help. Sellon’s attempted reply lacked conviction — it seemed that he had never thought about things in this way before.

What can be done to encourage researchers to adjust their focus? Redefining aspects of pet food research as a potentially harmful activity may play a part. Thus stigmatised, researchers may find it less attractive. Of course, much depends on improved information regarding research activities. Questions will need to be asked and answers clearly given. Until Michael Day, during proceedings, mentioned his involvement with the artificial pet food industry neither the course organisers nor his audience knew of his connection.

When the research culture changes, instead of assisting the claims made for artificial pet foods, new work will expressly investigate the harmful effects. Subtle biochemical pathways will be charted, providing benefits for man and animals. Freed from the influence of the pet food giants a surge of new findings should fill the communication channels. Overnight textbooks will appear dated and need to be rewritten from the perspective of the new enlightenment. Some diseases will become preventable and others will be easier to cure with new drugs and techniques.

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Tom Lonsdale — Sat, 13 Apr 2013 05:43:43 GMT

Anthony,

Thank you for your comments.

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]The questions need to be asked in a scientific manner, with proper research and development, with controlled studies.[/quote]

Lots of aspects to this.

Partly it goes like this:

a. We the dominant group assert that according to our scientific assessment processed food in the can and packet is the optimum source of nutrients and teeth cleaning for domestic carnivores. The volume of excrement, the number of children bitten by dogs, the environmental and economic costs are as good as you’ll get.

However a challenger says that’s a complete inversion of the truth on all fronts. Those responsible for the status quo must take the challenge seriously and demonstrate how the challenger is mistaken.

b.) The simple scientific algorithm goes something like this:

Either this dog is or is not running a temperature. Clear visual evidence available – you know the sort that courts of law depend on and most vets in their clinics do too.

Either this dog has a sparse coat or it does not. Tactile evidence available.

Either this dog has stinking breath or it doesn’t – depending on your sense of smell.

So when we say that a dog’s teeth are hugely more clean on a RMB diet we are giving you very strong clues as to the issues at hand.

When we say that in a straight comparison with junk-food fed carnivores those that are fed in closer accord with nature glow with health and vitality then that is a complete nullification of the dominant theory and has to be taken seriously. Bit like saying heavy objects fly skyward. If true that nullifies the theory of gravity and needs investigation.

c.) For future, when trying to flesh out the pathways and mechanisms then rigorous science and proper research with controlled studies will be needed.

d.) For now though, please don’t suggest that the so-called science underpinning the current vet paradigm is anything more than a corrupted belief system fashioned by the junk pet food/vet alliance. (See the next post from Raw Meaty Bones.) Put another way, the current vet paradigm that you put your apparently blind faith in is decidedly not conducted in a ‘scientific manner, with proper research and development, with controlled studies.’

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]If we continue to question you Tom, all we get is 'read my website, here's a story about someone that sent me a story about a pet'. Nothing scientific about that really, it's all anecdotal evidence.[/quote]

I took the time and trouble to write a 389 page book to help you better understand the multilevel SNAFU. Peer reviewers say it’s essential reading. Have you read it? Seems to me that you defend the status quo and attack me with only a sketchy understanding of the issues.

Have you read these three docs published in so-called peer review publications?

Periodontal disease and leucopenia

Feeding vs Nutrition: Have we lost the plot in small animal dietetics?

Cybernetic Hypothesis of Periodontal Disease in Mammalian Carnivores

and this WSAVA abstract?

Controversies in Feline Nutrition

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]you have a website where you can display such controlled experimental tests[/quote]

Let’s rise above the facile. Whistleblowers sound the alarm. Those well funded and well placed to deal with the massive fraud have the responsibility and the wherewithal. When Professor Colin Harvey, one of only two Profs of Vet Periodontology, wanted to do a straight comparison of dogs’ teeth when fed Hill’s Science Death and natural food he was banned.

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]you have a website where you can display such controlled experimental tests[/quote]

Anthony, you say ‘scientific community’ I say junk pet-food cult.

Have a look at the next post featuring Bristol’s Michael Day. A section on the vet humbug that passes for scientific enquiry and instruction.

All the best,

Tom

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 12 Apr 2013 15:19:20 GMT

[quote user="Tom Lonsdale"]

Please keep on questioning. The answers are there to be found.

[/quote]

The questions need to be asked in a scientific manner, with proper research and development, with controlled studies.

If we continue to question you Tom, all we get is 'read my website, here's a story about someone that sent me a story about a pet'. Nothing scientific about that really, it's all anecdotal evidence.

And before you repeat the argument that the 'junk pet food poisoners' sabotage the research market and won't allow anything to be published, you have a website where you can display such controlled experimental tests, without having the censorship etc etc you crow on about as soon as someone asks for real evidence on RMB.

Until then you are unlikely to increase your support amongst the scientific community

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Tom Lonsdale — Fri, 12 Apr 2013 03:01:10 GMT

G'day Laurence,

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]Although I question much of the "RMB cures all ills" continually spoken by Mr Lonsdale[/quote]

Fair enough to question, although I suggest best to proceed from some theoretical knowledge and practical experience. Otherwise woolly speculation and uncertainty may ensue.

For the theory have you read Raw Meaty Bones: Promote Health?

For the practical, have you simply fed your carnivore patients on a diet tested and approved by nature – preferably from when the animals are three weeks of age?

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]this may be one area where he may be right on the button[/quote]

Thank you Laurence. You’re right on the button in this regard too. Did you come to this realisation yourself or were you given instruction in this line of thinking at vet school?

Or was your vet school on the take from junk pet-food makers and did your vet school knowingly deliberately leave you in the dark about the dietary, obesity and periodontal links to the cat diabetes epidemic? If so, have you considered asking the school why and maybe if the answers are unsatisfactory bringing action for damages?

Please keep on questioning. The answers are there to be found.

All the best,

Tom

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 11 Apr 2013 18:52:33 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]What were they injecting, leather?[/quote]

erm.....yes.

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 11 Apr 2013 13:16:09 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]You're supposed to use a new needle/syringe with standard method of administration but does anyone?[/quote]

OUCH!!

[/quote]What were they injecting, leather? Newness is no guarantee of sharpness, I've had many needles come out the packaging with barbs like the twice used needle picture which I can feel snag as they are inserted and needles that still glide in smoothly after a dozen uses. I wouldn't advise a client to re-use the needles, although I don't shoot them if they want to, and I certainly had no problem with my own cat, it was only too blunt when he flinched!

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Rob Loxley — Thu, 11 Apr 2013 13:00:46 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]

[quote user="Claire McConnell"]

My only experience with a needle phobic owner of a diabetic cat was unfortunately euthanasia. Others may help you there.

[/quote]

How on earth did you manage that without a needle?

[/quote]

And did you find a new home for the diabetic cat?

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Wren — Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:42:22 GMT

[quote user="Claire McConnell"]

My only experience with a needle phobic owner of a diabetic cat was unfortunately euthanasia. Others may help you there.

[/quote]

How on earth did you manage that without a needle?

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:10:16 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]You're supposed to use a new needle/syringe with standard method of administration but does anyone?[/quote]

OUCH!!

[/quote]

OK.....while I agree that disposable needles should ideally only be used one- those pictures are not evidence of there being an issue. A fair comparison could only be drawn if the magnification remained constant - surely?

Did a needle manufacturer release those pictures perchance?

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Laurence Webb — Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:24:23 GMT

Although I question much of the "RMB cures all ills" continually spoken by Mr Lonsdale, this may be one area where he may be right on the button. One of the main indications of Hills m/d is for diabetic cats because it is low carbohydrate and high protein. By putting cats on the (K)Atkins diet you bypass much of their carbohydrate metabolism, so glucose homeostasis is less significant.

Hills m/d was once described to me by a Hills rep as mouse in a bag.

Of course, for those of a squeamish nature who don't fancy RMB there is always m/d. but then you'd be killing your cat 'cos it's processed and you'd be a puppet of the food companies, innit.

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:21:40 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]You're supposed to use a new needle/syringe with standard method of administration but does anyone?[/quote]

OUCH!!

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 10 Apr 2013 15:20:08 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]You're supposed to use a new needle/syringe with standard method of administration but does anyone?[/quote]

Yes.

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 10 Apr 2013 15:14:15 GMT

[quote user="KMurphy"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] it has a needle but you could possibly pretend it doesn't if someone else fits the cartridge.[/quote]'

Afraid not. The needle needs changed with every injection. Sorry!

[/quote] You're supposed to use a new needle/syringe with standard method of administration but does anyone? I used the needle until went blunt on my cat!

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

KMurphy — Wed, 10 Apr 2013 14:46:28 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] it has a needle but you could possibly pretend it doesn't if someone else fits the cartridge.[/quote]'

Afraid not. The needle needs changed with every injection. Sorry!

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 10 Apr 2013 14:44:13 GMT

While I bite my tongue and try to ignore the Aussie Troll, if the OP is still in need of help, MSD now do a VetPen for administering Caninsulin, it has a needle but you could possibly pretend it doesn't if someone else fits the cartridge.

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Tom Lonsdale — Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:37:47 GMT

[quote user="Andrew Mellor"]can anyone suggest anything else ? [/quote]

G'day Andrew,

You don't mention the state of gum health or body condition in your phobic owners cat.

You're likely aware of the periodontal disease/diabetes tie up and the obesity/diabetes nexus. (For those in doubt a quick google should suffice.) And of course a carbohydrate laden diet is the main determinant for the epidemic of diabetes in cats and dogs.

So on numerous levels withdrawing junk food and replacement with tough chewy food the first step in fixing the diabetes, perio and obesity.

For obesity, I recommend feeding on alternate days only and weekly weight recording.

Mind you changing an addicted cats diet easier said than done. http://www.rawmeatybones.com/petowners/switchingcats.php

Mostly though with perseverance things come right.

Good luck,

Tom

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Anthony Dennison — Tue, 09 Apr 2013 16:53:31 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Time for a new record to be put on, I think! [/quote]

Perhaps Tom wasn't getting enough discussion on RMB as usual at this time of year, so needed to dig up something else? (from before last years election and all!)

In all seriousness though, an owner phobic of needles also probably has phobias of other things, such as blood? Not good for them to have carcasses being chewed on.

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Bob Russell — Tue, 09 Apr 2013 12:33:49 GMT

[quote user="Tom Lonsdale"]

[quote user="Andrew Mellor"]diagnosed cat this morning and discussing options with owners and mentioned insulin injections - client collapsed hyperventillating and then vomitted - just at the thought of the needles, has anyone else managed to deal with the phobia in clients or themselves and can anyone suggest anything else ? food obviously are the type 2 drugs for humans of any use never had to avoid insulin before.[/quote]

Hi Andrew,

George the cat's owner had similar reaction when previous vets suggested elaborate testing and lifelong needles when he felt sure there was and is a simpler way.

Plenty pictures of George here. No needles, no glipizide, no insulin.

I hope you'll give it a try and maybe report back on the outcome.

All the best,

Tom

[/quote]

Time for a new record to be put on, I think!

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Tom Lonsdale — Tue, 09 Apr 2013 11:25:34 GMT

Hi Andrew,

George the cat's owner had similar reaction when previous vets suggested elaborate testing and lifelong needles when he felt sure there was and is a simpler way.

Plenty pictures of George here. No needles, no glipizide, no insulin.

I hope you'll give it a try and maybe report back on the outcome.

All the best,

Tom

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 13 Sep 2011 16:04:54 GMT

[quote user="Andrew Mellor"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Sounds like a good excuse to circumnavigate the cascade and get the cat straight onto Lantus insulin glargine which comes with a pen that dispenses 1iu at a time with a 3ml cartridge.[/quote]

owner decided to try this can you tell me is it used once daily in cats? it is long acting in people.

many thanks for all replies

[/quote]

Long acting is relative, Lantus is given twice daily to cats. Recommended strating dose is 0.5iu/kg bid if fasting glucose is >20mmol/l and 0.25iu/kg if its <20 given that intial starting dose should not exceed 3iu/cat bid. Monitor it closely with curves because many cats can go into remission even though, because you don't get the peaks and troughs and Somogyi effect is much less common than with 'conventional' insulins, there is less danger of an accidental hypoglycaemic episode. However don't panic because if you stop too soon and re-start it can (apparently) take much longer to get them back into stable remission. I've used Lantus in 2 cats but not the pen because both mine were on fractions of units and the pen can only be calibrated in single units. You can use a conventional insulin syringe with 10ml bottles or the 3ml cartridges of Lantus but because its 100iu/ml trying to give 1/2 units is very difficult anyway. I got one cat in long term remission within a month but with another the owner gave up because she couldn't manage the 1/2 units even with a 0.3ml syringe and went back to Caninsulin. I got mine from NVS, I phoned up their special orders dept, although most wholesalers probably work the same. The nice people at Sanofi were helpful over choosing which pen to order as there are several options although I didn't need to.

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Andrew Mellor — Tue, 13 Sep 2011 15:23:36 GMT

owner decided to try this can you tell me is it used once daily in cats? it is long acting in people.

many thanks for all replies

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Utlendigur — Mon, 12 Sep 2011 23:04:48 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]

[quote user="newgradvet"]

My only experience with a needle phobic owner of a diabetic cat was unfortunately euthanasia.

[/quote]

My God you killed the owner, what a hero!

[/quote]

Reminds me of an unfortunate reminder (to take a nurse with him) for a house visit that my boss booked in

"Elderly lady, euthanasia visit"

Especially as it wasn't long after Harold Shipman

We inherited a cat from another practice already on glipizide (can't remember whether it was tried on MD or not), but that's still coping a few months later. Another one that I tried on diet, then diet plus glipizide, just got gradually worse and was pts after a couple of months.

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Charlotte Marshall — Mon, 12 Sep 2011 22:55:00 GMT

We have had a few cases which have coped for varying periods on oral hypogycaemics and diet management. Even had a couple which went a few months on just diet control.

I did try oral meds on a dog which couldn't be injected once which was a dismal failure! (it was a last ditch effort and I had warned them it was unlikely to work).

Re: diabetes in cat needle phobic owner

Rob Loxley — Mon, 12 Sep 2011 22:28:45 GMT

Have had some success with oral hypoglycaemics along with high protein/low carb diets in 'well', non-ketotic, especially overweight (ie insulin resistant) cats. Certainly I'd try this before euthanasia.