Bruising in two dogs

Re: Bruising in two dogs

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 04 Aug 2011 09:36:33 GMT

Feacal examination not very good for lungworm, so as lungworm treatment worked-panacur/antibiotics /steroids-suggest you give 3 week course of these

Wynne

Re: Bruising in two dogs

Noweia — Thu, 04 Aug 2011 08:46:14 GMT

I was wodnering about an immune mediated vasculitis in Dog 2, given the hair loss and distribution. Have started it on steroids and oxytet until we get blood results back from the lab.

Re: Bruising in two dogs

Stephen Courtney — Wed, 03 Aug 2011 22:16:58 GMT

Adder bite? Assuming you get them so far north - i have seen immune mediated vasculitis that looked similar to what you describe, secondary to an adder bite.

Also possible trauma eg running into stationary objects resulting in bruising? just a thought.

Re: Bruising in two dogs

Noweia — Wed, 03 Aug 2011 19:51:39 GMT

[quote user="Jillian Hall"]

No protenuria I presume?

[/quote]

Not yet :( (Unhappy not because dog is not ill but because cannot find anything else wrong!!)

Re: Bruising in two dogs

Jillian Hall — Wed, 03 Aug 2011 19:46:33 GMT

How about Alabama rot (Idiopathic cutaneous and renal glomerular disease)?

As far as I knew it is just a Greyhound entity, but on the basis that the cause is not fully understood, could it occur in Lurchers as well? Apparently there are usually skin ulcers, but I have seen a case that was diagnosed as presumptive Alabama rot that had pretty negligible skin lesions, but did have dramatic bruising (and swelling) of the hindlimbs, along with azotaemia. The bruising was so dense we were worried about tissue necrosis and sloughing.

No protenuria I presume?

Re: Bruising in two dogs

Tim Cheyne — Wed, 03 Aug 2011 19:31:23 GMT

[quote user="Noweia"]

Did BMBT in Dog 2 today, and blood was forming fibriny clotty bits almost as it bled from the dog. I took 5ml of blood from the cephalic to do smears, fill tubes etc, and it had clotted in the syring before I could put it in any of the tubes

[/quote]

Certainly does not suggest warfarin. The blood now appears to be clotting unusually quickly. What could cause that?

Tim.

Re: Bruising in two dogs

Noweia — Wed, 03 Aug 2011 19:11:19 GMT

Thanks for all the replies so far.

In Dog 1, haematology values were all normal. Even sent them to IDEXX in case our machine was playing up, but they came back with the same thing.

No couging in either dog. Did thoracic rads in Dog 2 today, NAD.

Dog 2's legs are entirely purple from top to bottom, no breaks in it, so don't think abuse in these dogs.

Should also mention Dog 2 appears to be losing hair in random parts along the legs, and Dog 1 initially got better with Panacur, antibiotics and steroids (although it now seems to be getting dull again).

Re: Bruising in two dogs

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 03 Aug 2011 16:11:07 GMT

[quote user="Tim Cheyne"]

[/quote]

'What sort of abuse were you considering? If it was from a thrashing wouldn't the lesions be dorsal rather than ventral'?

With case one a boot. Case two a whipping around the legs. I'm not saying this is the case just one should not miss the wood for trees!

'If it is due to abuse the demeanour of the dogs when examined might give some indication; shy, apprehensive, cowering, aggressive defence'.

Dogs are surprisingly forgiving and stoical

The distribution of the lesions sounds odd to me for rodenticide poisoning with no other signs of haemorrhage/petechiae/echimoses. It was not a diagnosis, I would support all the other posts and rule out other causes, I did say it was a thought

Re: Bruising in two dogs

Tim Cheyne — Wed, 03 Aug 2011 15:44:27 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

With apparently normal haematology and precious little other symptoms, am I the only one who immediately thinks abuse?

[/quote]

Well, we do not have details of the haematology. NAD is not very informative until we know what parameters were checked. The reported biochemistry is not wildly abnormal but, again, levels are not stated but the definitions would fit rodenticide poisoning. What sort of abuse were you considering? If it was from a thrashing wouldn't the lesions be dorsal rather than ventral? If it is due to abuse the demeanour of the dogs when examined might give some indication; shy, apprehensive, cowering, aggressive defence.

Tim.

Re: Bruising in two dogs

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 03 Aug 2011 15:40:32 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

With apparently normal haematology and precious little other symptoms, am I the only one who immediately thinks abuse?

[/quote]

No, you are not, but the pattern of bruising especially on dog 2 is not typical and it seems there is no pain.

Re: Bruising in two dogs

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 03 Aug 2011 15:09:24 GMT

With apparently normal haematology and precious little other symptoms, am I the only one who immediately thinks abuse?

Re: Bruising in two dogs

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 03 Aug 2011 14:32:37 GMT

I'd go with warfarin type poisoning as well-rather old for 1st presentation, but I suppose just possible a hereditary coagulopathy if the dogs are related

Wynne

Re: Bruising in two dogs

Edward Jones — Wed, 03 Aug 2011 13:24:28 GMT

+1 with the warfarin-type poisoning.

is there any coughing?

I've had a couple of bleeding (warfarin) cases where the only bleeding sign was blood tinged saliva in the phayrnx - only found by pushing my hand well over the back of the tongue and looking at what it comes out with it! There's normally a cough in that case, however.

Re: Bruising in two dogs

Bob Russell — Wed, 03 Aug 2011 13:13:45 GMT

The wholesaler should have the little kit to do a buccal mucosal bleeding time - very easy to do. In the meantime Konakion if you still have it or the new licensed stuff just out!

Re: Bruising in two dogs

Tim Cheyne — Wed, 03 Aug 2011 13:09:06 GMT

Sorry, I was in rather a hurry when I posted this morning, hence the brevity of my reply. My thinking was along these lines; one dog (perhaps both of them) is a Lurcher, i.e. a hunting scavenging type. Blood is leaking into dependent parts of the body or contact points either through damage to the capillary walls or by diapedesis, most likely the latter as injuries are neither obvious nor reported. Total protein is low, perhaps through loss of clotting factors such as fibrinogen. Globulin is calculated rather than measured by many analysers so I am not inclined to take that value too seriously. You do not give the albumin value which might be more helpful; albumin is the largest protein molecule in the blood and least likely to leak through diapedesis. Creatinine clearance does rise in treatment with anticoagulants such as warfarin. Rats poisoned by coumarins (still very common rodenticides) do not die immediately, I believe that about three days is usual, and a dog ingesting parts of a poisoned rat can be poisoned itself.

I hope that my thinking aloud is not boring but you do seem to have quite a neat little picture. Immediate therapy would certainly involve parenteral vitamin K but it would also be worth talking to the "poisons people" and asking their advice.

Hope that this helps. Good luck.

Tim.

Re: Bruising in two dogs

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 03 Aug 2011 11:51:00 GMT

Idexx will do clotting by post. Take into a citrate tube, spin and remove the citrated plasma. Have you tried a buccal mucosal bleeding time? Handy to see if clotting working or not. Idexx do a little kit. Check no access to rodentacide, we see this quite often. Remember the modern products can be active for over 1 months so don't stop treating too soon, especially if signs of any bleeds.

Re: Bruising in two dogs

Kate Richardson — Wed, 03 Aug 2011 11:19:54 GMT

Rat poison was my first thought as well or other toxin causing coagulopathy

Re: Bruising in two dogs

Tim Cheyne — Wed, 03 Aug 2011 05:14:15 GMT

Coumarin/warfarin poisoning? Any possibility of access to rat poisons? Is the blood clotting normally?

Tim.