Parainfluenza component of dog vaccines

Re: Parainfluenza component of dog vaccines

Rob Loxley — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 13:49:21 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]the cost of the Pi and CoV components of a vaccine are peanuts[/quote]

I agree DHP and DHPPi are similarly priced, but the cost of Nobivac Pi&L vs just Lepto (in years not needing DHP) is quite large.

Re: Parainfluenza component of dog vaccines

Anonymous — Thu, 21 Jul 2011 17:28:38 GMT

Interesting insights, Martin. Anyone getting veiled threats from pharmaceutical companies must be on to something, though we can hardly blame them for protecting their interests - as you say, isn't that going to be the bottom line for most of us?

Getting totally off-topic now, but it has always appealed to me that there must be a better financial model (from the pet-owning public's point-of-view) for providing veterinary services where there's less chance of conflict between profit and objective professionalism

Re: Parainfluenza component of dog vaccines

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 21 Jul 2011 09:07:31 GMT

[quote user="David Beattie"]

I would agree that I don't ever test for it, and certainly see plenty of cases of serious diarrhoea with no identified cause, but I'm not sure that even if I did test and find positives it would convince me to vaccinate - for one, I'd need to know that it was a clinically relevant finding. This is a different situation to the likes of infectious canine hepatitis and leptospira icterohaemorrhagicae - if we promote these vaccines, then should be also do basic surveillance like testing unexplained liver cases out of a 'pot' of money from vaccine-related revenues rather than bemoaning that the affected individual (perhaps unvaccinated) patient's owners won't pay for the tests.

[/quote]

We could raise a whole new argument here over the ineffectiveness of vaccines in general. Those who are familiar with the bee in my bonnet will probably sigh and move on at this point but when I did a bit of investigation after having two dogs contract CPV after completing their vaccine courses at 10 weeks I uncovered a whole can of worms. Supported by testimonials from other vets, some anonymous inside information from a major vaccine company and reading some research the findings weren't pleasant to behold. I published the results of that in the Vet Times and it evoked a head in the sand response from the profession (maybe hardly anyone cared to read it as it wasn't peer reviewed and in a mainstream publication but it was upheld by no less than Hal Thompson) and a couple of veiled threats from vaccines companies. If you don't trust me do your own research you may be frightened by what you find. You're looking at 20% failure rates on most vaccines and a whole lot of dogs are not getting ill despite vaccination not because of it plus as you say David we rarely do any surveillance testing we trust the vaccine companies - maybe that is misguided blind faith. I will continue to vaccinate because the situation would be worse if I didn't, the cost of the Pi and CoV components of a vaccine are peanuts, they do no harm in my experience over and above the general risk of vaccine related disease, they may do some good, it is all we have at the moment and now my cynicism - I will lose a lot of revenue if I stop vaccinating. Perhaps that last statement is what it is really all about if we are all honest.

Re: Parainfluenza component of dog vaccines

Anonymous — Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:12:43 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

As this has become part of the thread; David made a slightly cynical comment about coronovirus: I would not dismiss this lightly, you may be surprised how many cases of nasty diarrhoea are caused at least partly by coronovirus.

[/quote]

I guess I'm starting from the viewpoint of not giving it and needing convinced it's worth vaccinating against, rather than routinely giving it and needing convinced there's any decent reason to stop giving it (I'm certainly not aware of a convincing argument it does any harm, and it may do good). I'm probably just a bit of a 'non-interventionist' at heart.

I've never looked into the subject, and might well be surprised by how many cases of nasty diarrhoea have a major coronavirus component. But I would note that it makes it in the WSAVA VGG2010 (sponsored by Intervet/Schering-Plough incidentally ... hope I've not gone beyond a state of slight cynicism mentioning that!) all the way down below the "non-core" (parainfluenza, bordetella, borellia, leptospira, influenza) group to "not recommended" - and the explanation given isn't that if fails to protect but because "the prevalence of clinical cases of confirmed CCV does not justify vaccination". Hardly a damning condemnation of the vaccine, but sufficient to make me less than enthusiastic in incorporating it in the 'routine booster'.

Re: Parainfluenza component of dog vaccines

Bob Russell — Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:04:36 GMT

I remember in the dim and distant past arriving to do evening surgery to find a full waiting room, all with coughing dogs. Those were the days!!

An outbreak now seems to be one dog a day for a few days. Unless something else has changed, is it the Pi that is providing sufficient protection to prevent Bordetella gaining a hold? Were most of those cases parainfluenza and not B.bronchiseptica?

Re: Parainfluenza component of dog vaccines

Wren — Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:01:28 GMT

[quote user="i am ed"]

So, how about an L vacc at 8-10 weeks and DHP/L 2 weeks later? ...[/quote]

That is exactly what our new regime proposes

Re: Parainfluenza component of dog vaccines

Edward Jones — Wed, 20 Jul 2011 16:41:56 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]the data intervet published to obtain their license differs from the helpful little fridge magnet 'best practice' thingy they gave me[/quote]

Maybe you need a newer magnet: our has single DHP if starting at 10wks old or later.

[/quote]

So, how about an L vacc at 8-10 weeks and DHP/L 2 weeks later? ...

Re: Parainfluenza component of dog vaccines

Rob Loxley — Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:41:29 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]the data intervet published to obtain their license differs from the helpful little fridge magnet 'best practice' thingy they gave me[/quote]

Maybe you need a newer magnet: our has single DHP if starting at 10wks old or later.

Re: Parainfluenza component of dog vaccines

Gerry Henry — Wed, 20 Jul 2011 12:07:58 GMT

Don't think I've ever seen, certainly never diagnosed, a case of parainfluenza; re corona, we have a large breeder who regularly has corona diarrhoea in 3wk old litters, I spoke to an industry virologist who said vaccinating probably wouldn't make any difference as to be effective the corona needs to be consumed, not injected.

Just my two cents ... oh, BTW, be sure what you mean when you say 'drug co recommendation'; the data intervet published to obtain their license differs from the helpful little fridge magnet 'best practice' thingy they gave me; according to the data submitted for licensing one inj of DHCPV at 10 weeks or later should be protective yet they 'recommend' two shots of same; good way to sell vaccs methinks.

Re: Parainfluenza component of dog vaccines

Julian Earl — Wed, 20 Jul 2011 11:17:45 GMT

Several years ago when we were using the DHPPi component of a major vaccine producer for dogs, I was categorically told that the parenteral injection of the parainfluenza component is not effective at producing immunity and that surface immunity is/was the only (known) effective method. Of course, it may have been a way to encourage routine use of the intranasal vaccine but the person knew we were not doing that and were unlikely to start so it was a strange thing to say if not true.

Since then we have only used the DHP components.

Re: Parainfluenza component of dog vaccines

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:17:34 GMT

I'm led to believe that parainfluenza is a lot more common than realised and can cause some rare serious cases of pneumonia but of course no-one tests for it we just make a vague diagnosis of kennel cough and dish out some Ronaxan. It would be interesting to know how many cases of non-specific coughs people see in dogs and how this compares with vaccination protocol. I see very, very few cases and I use a Pi component in mine which of course may or may not be completely non-significant.

Re: Parainfluenza component of dog vaccines

Wren — Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:49:39 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]I claim no special knowledge; I'm happy to be enlightened, but I struggle to see it as at all important.[/quote]

Indeed - has anyone in the real world ever made a confirmed diagnosis of para-influenza in a dog ? It seems to have passed me by.

[/quote]

This is partly why I posed the question. I have no idea whether I've seen hundreds of cases of parainfluenza and diagnosed them as 'generic respiratory infection' or suchlike, or none at all?

Re: Parainfluenza component of dog vaccines

bob lehner — Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:29:33 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]I claim no special knowledge; I'm happy to be enlightened, but I struggle to see it as at all important.[/quote]

Indeed - has anyone in the real world ever made a confirmed diagnosis of para-influenza in a dog ? It seems to have passed me by.

Re: Parainfluenza component of dog vaccines

Anonymous — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 21:29:27 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Wren"]how important do people really think that the parainfluenza component is?[/quote]

I claim no special knowledge; I'm happy to be enlightened, but I struggle to see it as at all important.

[/quote]

Agreed with Evelyn.

If I want my dog vaccinated for parainfluenza virus, then I'd take an intranasal vaccine please (usually combined with Bordetella). If I don't know what the vet's vaccinating my dog for, then I might get it lumped in with my "annual booster" in parenteral form of dubious benefit (along with coronavirus in some instances apparently). I may have a different mind-set, but I wouldn't feel short-changed if my vet used modern expert-opinion or evidence-based risk analysis to determine that, for my dog, less-was-more when it came to "non-core" vaccines.

Re: Parainfluenza component of dog vaccines

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 20:32:42 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]how important do people really think that the parainfluenza component is?[/quote]

I claim no special knowledge; I'm happy to be enlightened, but I struggle to see it as at all important.

Re: Parainfluenza component of dog vaccines

Andrew Kent — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 19:11:32 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]Do other people just give DHP and how important do people really think that the parainfluenza component is?[/quote]

I was under the impression this is only appropriate if every dog is being given the Pi through the KC Vacc and that the DHPPi should be used if you are not using KC so I would think you will need to make KC part of your core vacc programme if using DHP

Andy

Re: Parainfluenza component of dog vaccines

Vikki Halliday LLB — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 13:31:07 GMT

We use DHPPiL for first course and booster, and offer KC as an optional vaccination.

After first booster where the vaccinatino status of the animal is known, we use PiL for 2 years then DHPPiL ,( as per manufacturers recommendation), plus KC where appropriate, as it was also my understanding that Pi could cause significant disease without Bordetella.

Don't think that's overvaccinating?

Re: Parainfluenza component of dog vaccines

Wren — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 12:45:48 GMT

We've just changed from Duramune - I was much happier with their coverage! I'll happily use the Nobivac instead but really feel that we should use the DHPPi + L. We tend to give the same components every year as a booster.

Re: Parainfluenza component of dog vaccines

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 12:38:31 GMT

I use Duramune DHPPiLC for both the parainfluenza component and coronovirus. Whilst we should be all aware that these viruses potentiate bordatellosis and canine parvovirus respectively, I have been led to believe that both these viruses can cause significant illness on their own especially coronovirus*. The booster I give in between DHP years is PiLC so they get these every year along with their lepto booster. There is also evidence of a respiratory coronovirus* in dogs that can cause significant disease, but as far as I'm aware the standard CoV vaccine doesn't protect against this.

*Source Nicola Decaro seminar Jan 2008.