vicious dog

Re: vicious dog

patrick murphy — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 14:16:17 GMT

thank-you. most helpful. had it by today, but we stupidly gave it a wee bit of antisedan, nailed the owners wife in the car, and I had to restrain it with a towel, trying with little effect to top up dom/torb, eventually masking with iso to muzzle. will try gel, and I think dry run has some sense. we then finished off our weird morning by chasing a chicken around the surgery with both of the staff dogs (Viz and Springer) heavily involved.

Re: vicious dog

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 13:56:28 GMT

The five freedoms, the most basic measure of welfare:

1. Freedom from Hunger and Thirst - by ready access to fresh water and a diet to maintain full health and vigour.

2. Freedom from Discomfort - by providing an appropriate environment including shelter and a comfortable resting area.

3. Freedom from Pain, Injury or Disease - by prevention or rapid diagnosis and treatment.

4. Freedom to Express Normal Behaviour - by providing sufficient space, proper facilities and company of the animal's own kind.

5. Freedom from Fear and Distress - by ensuring conditions and treatment which avoid mental suffering.

How many are you able to provide in a dog that is this aggressive? Just the first two? I'm not convinced that a dog that is very aggressive (without provocation) can have a good quality of life. But then I feel most aggression is due to fear and anxiety. But that's just my opinion.

Re: vicious dog

bob lehner — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:01:23 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I have found that many dogs with dubious temperaments are even worse at home[/quote][quote user="Bob Russell" ]

Quite agree - many dogs are much worse at home - not surprising, as they will be defending their home territory against intruders. Plus lack of trained helpers, lack of instant access to meds and other equipment you might need - in my opinion home visits are often very unsatisactory and to be discouraged. Chasing the dog around the house trying to extract it from under the furniture, behind the sofa etc. is unprofessional at least. Even 'pussy cats' are much better dealt with at the surgery.

Re: vicious dog

Simon Neuhoff — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:19:34 GMT

David - read the thread. There has not been any "instant dismisaal". In fact there have bene a variety of options discussed - muzzling it at home, behavioural management, various physical restraint techniques, various chemical drug combinations. The OP has indicated that he feels none of these are appropriate. If he cannot manage this dog with any of these options - if this dog is genuinely that much of a problem - then he may need to consider yet further options.

You are right we - you included - are drawing conclusions based on incomplete knowledge - the OP has seen fit not to give us any further info. The advice can only be based on what we know.

My perspective is that human safety comes first - mine, the client's, the staffs', the general public. I don't think that perspective is dogmatic or odd.

Re: vicious dog

Bob Russell — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:09:30 GMT

As I have said - we need to know what procedure is needed. Some dogs are vicious at the vets and complete pussy cats at home. It is always good to discuss the options pre-euthanasia so the thread is useful.

We can deal with almost any form of behaviour shown by a dog as long as we are forewarned.

I have found that many dogs with dubious temperaments are even worse at home. We try to get them in at quiet times. We also try to reduce their anxiety problems by getting owners to bring them in regularly and just sit in the waiting room.

On occasions they are not suitable for safe handling. I will not tolerate owners that pretend there is not a problem until the teeth are bared. "Oh he's never done that before!"- yeah!!

Re: vicious dog

David Mills — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 09:52:30 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

it does not excuse it. The dog is dangerous. Full stop.

[/quote]

And? No-one is arguing it is not potentially dangerous, which I assume is why the OP is going to the house to mitigate this. Just because a dog is dangerous in certain situations does not mean a death sentence - a lot are perfectly manageable by avoidance of such situations. If agrression is unpredicatble or around children then that is another matter. What I am horrified at is this instant dismissal of this dog ('full stop' - how silly) when we know little about it, allied with the health and safety piffle - if you, trained as a vet, aeren'ty going to deal with this dog, who is? From a profession where each animal's welfare supposedly demands the same consideration, I find it truly shocking just because it doesn't bounce into your consulting room and you can smugly smile when the o says 'oh, she loves coming to see you' people start grandstanding from some perverse dogmatic perspective. Very odd.

Re: vicious dog

Kate Richardson — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 09:40:06 GMT

If any animal is capable of behaving this aggressively when under stress/afraid at the vets, then it has the potential to behave this way if it finds itself in a similarly stressful/scary situation when not at the vets. Unfortunately, it doesn't matter what the cause of the aggression is, just because we can understand why it is behaving this way, it does not excuse it. The dog is dangerous. Full stop.

Re: vicious dog

Simon Neuhoff — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 09:28:17 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

Find some of the assumptions on here about said dog frankly silly, given we have little/no info about its history or the reasons for sedation etc. I have owned a dog that was aggressive (defensively) with new people largely due to its past/pra, but was a teddy bear with me due to the cirsumstances that allowed it to be - countryside etc. What a lot of silly grandstanding about euthanasing the dog.

[/quote]

Got to disagree with you David. This dog has already bitten the owner - it sounds like this occurred within the practice. If so the vet is liable but even more importantly - responsible. I agree the information we are going on is incomplete - for some reason the OP is being very cagey! I for one though would not treat any animal if I felt it represented a serious and unmanageable risk to myself or the staff or the owner.

Re: vicious dog

David Mills — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 23:34:44 GMT

From my experience, domitor is at best unreliable orally, though if nothing else can be used, use it at 5x the data sheet and remember it has to go sublingually to have any chance. If the dog is stressed it won't work. I've also used domosedan gel in the past, which is a horse alpha-2, but in a gel form so easier to place sublingually - It's about 1ml per 150kg in a horse, so scale back accordingly.

Acp tablets at 2-4mg/kg given 1-2hr before can 'take the edge off' a dog enough it a domestic setting to be able to jab it - if the legs go wobbly then it's worked (but its effects are limited at the surgery). You can combine these with high doses of the opiod tramadol orally for better effect - 10mg/kg should do it - or there is oral butorphanol tablets (torbutrol) but it is horrendously expensive. Don't in any circumstance use an oral benzodiazpene - it can unmask aggression in dogs quite dramatically by socially disinhibiting them - my teddy bear even nipped me a couple of times with this on board.

What can be useful with any oral dosing is a 'dry run' a week or so before so that the stress of the day doesn't lead to rushing or errors. And give everything time. And space. And quiet, familiar surroundings.

Re: vicious dog

Bob Russell — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 14:54:09 GMT

I may have missed something but what sort of procedure(s) are you trying to perform? The discussion has moved on to euthanasia but if the owners are expecting diagnostic work and treatment then there have to be consideration as to whether it is appropriate.

I agree with posters that say if you can't do it safely don't do it!

I had a Rottie (nasty one) with eczema on its backside. The dog flew at me while the teenage owners were giggling in the background. They were all given their marching orders but not before they stopped at the front desk to pay for the consultation. I was satisfied that the dog had impacted anal glands and could not be handled safely without sedation. The owners clearly thought it was funny but lost the smiles on their faces when I told them to grow up and take responsibility for their dog.

First and only time I saw that dog!

Re: vicious dog

Simon Neuhoff — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 14:31:52 GMT

[quote user="patrick murphy"]

I know it sounds ridiclulous, but as always there are background psycho things that I cannot bring up in public,far above my paygrade, and if a different client we could handle and have done many times in the past.

is Nembutol still out there. I really cannot show up at her house and dart the thing, but a potent sandwich would be a great help.I did ask if xylazine was absorbed orally and did not ge answer.thanks

[/quote]

Irrespective of the circumstances - if you can't deal with the animal in a manner that ensures your safety and those of your staff then DON'T.

Re: vicious dog

bob lehner — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 14:04:15 GMT

Domitor certainly works by the oral route - as does ketamine in humans by all accounts.

Re: vicious dog

Bob Russell — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 13:52:30 GMT

They also have Phenol for sale if you want the give your H&S person a cardiac arrest. 'We love them as much a you do!' Umm!!!

Re: vicious dog

Robert Whiteford — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 13:46:49 GMT

Check this out

www.oneclickpets.co.uk/a-to-z-general-misc--chloral-hydrate-500gm-p-9139.html

Knock-out drops?

Use lots......

Actually cannot believe this is available on the internet without prescription.

Re: vicious dog

patrick murphy — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 13:27:30 GMT

Re: vicious dog

Alan Tevendale — Sat, 16 Jul 2011 22:47:27 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

If things are as bad as that then it wants shooting for everyones sake. Not safe.

[/quote]

I would agree that any dog that needed that level of intervention would generally be too dangerous to be considered a pet and in every case that I've needed to use some form of remote injection the animal has been ultimately euthanased.

Re: vicious dog

Alan Tevendale — Sat, 16 Jul 2011 22:45:31 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

[quote user="Alan Tevendale"]I use dom/torb/ket in some of the nasty zoo animals. works a treat for most things.[/quote]

How do you restrain them or do you use a blow pipe/dart gun?

Niall

[/quote]

Often use dart for carnivores such as Lions/hunting dogs. larger hoofstock I use a masterject remote injection system or dart if can't get close enough. Many of these animals are far too dangerous to try to restrain any other way both for the handlers and themselves.

Re: vicious dog

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 16 Jul 2011 22:38:26 GMT

If things are as bad as that then it wants shooting for everyones sake. Not safe.

Re: vicious dog

Niall Taylor — Sat, 16 Jul 2011 22:38:14 GMT

[quote user="Alan Tevendale"]I use dom/torb/ket in some of the nasty zoo animals. works a treat for most things.[/quote]

How do you restrain them or do you use a blow pipe/dart gun?

Niall

Re: vicious dog

Niall Taylor — Sat, 16 Jul 2011 22:33:32 GMT

[quote user="patrick murphy"]we have tried and he knows that trick. must be genetic.[/quote]

So you can't inject this dog or give it anything orally?

Sounds like your options are limited. How about a big metal loop firmly attached to the wall, slip lead + long rope attached to dog, feed rope through metal loop and pull until dog is restrained. Then inject with dom and torb i/m then top up with i/v propofol or whatever.

Really, if you can't give him stuff in the food, get him near a kennel or inject him then you are not going to be able to do anything - who on EARTH wants to own a dog like this!? It sounds like you're in wild animal territory here - you need to be looking at large carnivore crush pens, dart guns or blow pipes - followed very rapidly by euthanasia. How big is the dog?

Very exasperating.

Niall

Re: vicious dog

patrick murphy — Sat, 16 Jul 2011 16:46:25 GMT

we have tried and he knows that trick. must be genetic.

Re: viscious dog

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 16 Jul 2011 16:41:03 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]The practice manager insisted it was dealt with in house (although she noticeably kept her distance), so 2 untrained nurses fed it acp, tried to use a dog catcher, squirted domitor and ketamine into it's mouth and once they thought it was flat tried to muzzle it where upon it leapt up and attacked.[/quote]

The practice manager insisted? By what right? Jeepers, heavens prrrrreserve us from practice managers.

Can you still get Nembutal capsules? A Nembutal sandwich used to work a treat for junkyard dogs.

Re: viscious dog

patrick murphy — Sat, 16 Jul 2011 16:28:23 GMT

is it absorbable orally?

Re: vicious dog

Alan Tevendale — Sat, 16 Jul 2011 13:55:13 GMT

I use dom/torb/ket in some of the nasty zoo animals. works a treat for most things.

Re: vicious dog

Noweia — Sat, 16 Jul 2011 13:43:49 GMT

[quote user="patrick murphy"]

I was haoping that simething more like barbiturates or something as in a supersized drug sandwich night have been tried.

thanks

[/quote]

I would still vote Dom/Ket/Torb - isn't that what they use for dangerous wild animals? If that won't work for a dog then nothing will