Getting a rabbit to eat fibre

Re: Getting a rabbit to eat fibre

Marie Kubiak — Mon, 20 Jun 2011 16:20:21 GMT

Keeping yourself busy then! I'm planning on going to BVZS in November so may see you there

Re: Getting a rabbit to eat fibre

Mark Rowland — Mon, 20 Jun 2011 12:20:09 GMT

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]

Hi Mark,

I still see the increase in pH as something that can be very useful in treating these rabbits alongside the prokinetic action, but I think that's an opinion we will differ on :)

With ranitidine efficacy, I can recollect that ranitidine has been demonstrated to be prokinetic by acetylcholinesterase inhibition so increasing acetylcholine concentration and stimulating smooth muscle contractions. The effects on isolated intestine (not sure if this is the same paper you refer to) shows contraction in response to ranitidine administration in both small and large intestines. Exact references/details lacking as I'm currently working away from new practice (have been bouncing between the Netherlands, Swindon and Birmingham for the last few months), but new job lovely thanks and looking forward to having a stable base at the end of this month! See you in Seattle?

Marie

[/quote]

Alas my traveling days are limited at the moment. The 4th vet starts in August and Ive a host of other things going on. Couple these with 3 little girls and the idea of long distance travel has to be shelved for the immediate future. We managed Munich last year after a long drive but that`s about the limit until everyones walking! Really glad its going OK, hope to see you soon, perhaps if I can haul myself to a BVZS.

Mark

Re: Getting a rabbit to eat fibre

Marie Kubiak — Mon, 20 Jun 2011 09:18:31 GMT

Hi Mark,

I still see the increase in pH as something that can be very useful in treating these rabbits alongside the prokinetic action, but I think that's an opinion we will differ on :)

Marie

Re: Getting a rabbit to eat fibre

Mark Rowland — Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:12:53 GMT

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]

Certainly agree with you about investigating underlying factors further.

Re: ranitidine, rabbit gastric pH is actually closer to 1 and low fibre intake leads to not only reduced 'dilution' of gastric acid but also predominant carbohydrate content in ingesta with associated fermentation and potential exacerbation of acidosis throughout the GI tract. Low pH can lead to a non-infectious enteritis and has been hypothesised to be an issue in cases of stasis and caecal dysfunction. Not to say this is the case here but ranitidine shouldn't be written off as therapy in rabbits. I find it very useful in many GI cases in preventing/treating ulceration and stimulating lower GI movement that metoclopramide isn't as effective at doing and without the potential side effect of GI spasm.

[/quote]

Marie

I did not say I was writing ranitidine off, in fact I use it sometimes. My concern is the 73% reduction and loss of the protective mechanism offered by the stomach as well as the loss of digestive ability offered by the reduction in pepsin secretion. In a case where carbohydrate may be entering the lower gastro-intestinal tract it may seem unwise to allow a host of potentially pathogenic bacteria access to the region also? (especially if premilinary digestion has been reduced by 1/3). The only reference I have found on ranitidine and intestinal motility has been on tissue samples which I would extrapolate to a live animal with caution. I remain open minded but cautious on the subject at the moment and would love to be linked to any references you have.

Hope you are settling in your job OK

Mark

Re: Getting a rabbit to eat fibre

Marie Kubiak — Fri, 17 Jun 2011 16:47:41 GMT

Certainly agree with you about investigating underlying factors further.

Re: Getting a rabbit to eat fibre

Mark Rowland — Fri, 17 Jun 2011 16:18:37 GMT

I would wonder if you are addressing the correct problem here. If the rabbit is passing normal pellets during the day then its fibre intake may well be adequate. In the morning, as you know caecotrophs are produced and there is normally a strong reflex to ingest them. If you are getting soiling issues, I would assess its ability to ingest the caecotrophs. Lateral radiographs would address the possibility of a spinal lesion and give an idea of a sludgy bladder. Bloods (including an e cunuculi titre) would indicate if there is an inflammatory focus and give an idea of metabolic status. Does the rabbit appear obese.

Wrt ranitidine. I have reservations about using this drug without a good reason. Rabbit stomach pH is ~2. It is kept at this pH to sterilise the gastric contents and therefore give a protective effect from dysbiosis. Rabbits have the highest basal acid and pepsin output among animal species studied.Ranitidine decreases acid (73% decrease) and pepsin (37% decrease) secretion in rabbits. Remember feeding in rabbits stimulates lipase and pepsin secretion, so ranitidine (or another H2 antagonist) may cause problems with digestion in rabbits as well as raising the pH which may allow bacteria to colonise a rabbits lower intestines leading to a dysbiosis.

So I would be delving a little deeper in a case like this

Goodluck

Re: Getting a rabbit to eat fibre

mariette asselbergs — Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:27:54 GMT

As ex rabbitt owner -not as vet- my rabbitts lived on, and loved, dandelion leaves and cabbage leaves, I think they are good sources of fibre too. Fresh or slightly wilted/dried.

Mariette

Re: Getting a rabbit to eat fibre

HMC — Fri, 17 Jun 2011 13:52:28 GMT

[quote user="Rieke Hettrick"]fresh grass (handpicked and washed as a vegetable if not available for grazing)[/quote]

Any reason why you recommend washing it? In case dogs have urinated on it? Or if it's not from your own garden and you don't know if pesticides have been used? Personally I don't bother when I pick grass from the garden.

Re: Getting a rabbit to eat fibre

Rieke Hettrick — Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:03:56 GMT

Having followed Marie's advice could I suggest some good sources for quality hay of several varieties:

Willow Warren www.willowwarren.co.uk

The Hay Experts www.thehayexperts.co.uk

Burgess www.burgesspetcare.co.uk/shop/rabbit

There's also Readigrass www.friendshipestates.co.uk which is dried faster and more palatable to some rabbits not keen on eating hay.

Also I find that reluctant hay eaters will usually eat fresh grass (handpicked and washed as a vegetable if not available for grazing) and wild plants, Virginia Richardson's book Rabbit Nutrition gives colour photos of safe wild plants for rabbits, I found it invaluable when I got my first rabbits.

NB it goes without saying to make sure the rabbit is vaccinated and that the hutch is indeed large (min 6ft x 2ft x 2ft for dwarf rabbits) and the rabbit ideally has full access to a run.

Rieke

Re: Getting a rabbit to eat fibre

Marie Kubiak — Thu, 16 Jun 2011 16:43:04 GMT

Martin - ranitidine is a lower gut motility regulator in rabbits so if the caecum is contracting erratically and randomly emptying out caecal material early then it helps to normalise the emptying pattern. I've found it quite useful in these types of cases as an adjunctive treatment until the owner can make the gradual change onto a better diet. Plus it helps with reducing risk of ulceration/gastric irritation if rabbit is genuinely inappetant.

Re: Getting a rabbit to eat fibre

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:12:57 GMT

I would also question how the owner knows it is not eating hay. If there are no dental problems or they have been addressed it seems obvious to me that you withdraw all other food and offer just good quality timothy hay in a feeder of some sort as well as for bedding, or put it out to grass, the rabbit is an eating machine it won't stave itself to death. If that improves the problem then re-introduce vegetables with some extruded diet but at no more than 25% of total dietary intake and totally avoid any carbohydrates or muesli type diets.

PS Marie I'm interested to know haw ranitidine would help - are you suggesting that gastric ulceration may be a cause?

Re: Getting a rabbit to eat fibre

HMC — Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:29:26 GMT

[quote user="Cailyn Brown"]

In this situation don't give the rabbit grain at all for three days, but give him the same amount of pellets and vegetables he is accustomed to getting. Then give him the new grain, but for a day or two, cut his vegetables and pellets to roughly half of what you usually give him.

[/quote]

You make this sound like a magic formula, and I am duly sceptical. How will removing the hay ('grain' as you put it) then reintroducing it 3 days later make a vast difference? I stick by my thoughts that all old hay should be removed and replaced with fresh hay there and then and preferably introduce a way to stop the hay being trampled.

I would not halve a rabbit's dry food/vegetables- that seems very sudden. But then again, I am used to my rabbits eating all their food- it might be different if they have an excess to begin with. Perhaps such things should not be generalised.

Yes, I think a different type of hay may help; not sure about those mentioned above but possibly timothy hay or alfalfa.

Re: Getting a rabbit to eat fibre

Cailyn Brown — Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:20:40 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Ward"]

I saw a rabbit yesterday with chronic non-caecotrophy problems. It's still producing normal pellets during the day but is very faecally soiled come the morning. Its teeth appear fine, it's not obese, it lives in a large hutch so there are no height issues and does not appear arthritic. However, the owner really struggles to get it to eat any fibre. It uses hay as bedding, and she has tried many other forms of fibre food to no avail. I've given some excel fibrepaste, but this is not a long term solution. Does perseverance help, or will that just lead to an anorexic and very sick bunny? Does anyone have any smart tricks for encouraging fibre intake in these fussy rabbits?

[/quote]

Hey that's not strange at all.

If still he isn’t eating hay, verify that he don’t have molar points with a visit to a good, rabbit-savvy veterinarian. If there are no points, or the points have been filed, and the rabbit still won’t eat grain after going through a second round of no hay for three days as described above, try different kinds of grains, such as oat, barley, wheat, brome, and orchard hay. There are some tips for the diet of a rabbit in the following site. Go through it, hope it would help the rabbit owner to overcome this ugly situation. http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/diet.html

But always remember, do not do this if the rabbit is ill or is injured.

Re: Getting a rabbit to eat fibre

HMC — Thu, 16 Jun 2011 10:24:07 GMT

Talking as an owner rather than with my vet hat on, I have found that the main problem with hay is trampling (my bunnies then empty the litter out of the box and when it mixes with the hay they won't eat it). A good solution is a hollowed out stick with holes in the sides (available at a major pet shop), which can be crammed full with hay; this keeps the hay off the floor. some rabbits will use a hay rack (my sister's, not mine). I tend to use straw for bedding and hay for feeding.

Re: Getting a rabbit to eat fibre

Marie Kubiak — Wed, 15 Jun 2011 10:59:37 GMT

Does it actually eat hay? If not then look at whether hay offered is of sufficient quality to actually be appetising, and consider skull rads to look for apical changes that may not be evident on clinical exam but can cause significant pain and put them off anything fibrous. Caecal dysfunction can occur with neurological dysfunction or changes in intestinal pH and lead to very sticky caecotrophs but dietary causes are much more common. Look at cutting out all carbohydrate based food items (pellets/muesli/root vet/treats) gradually and maintaining it on a primarily hay diet and often the problems are reduced to a manageable level. Ranitidine at the same time can help reduce clinical signs but alone isn't addressing the underlying problem.

Marie