Vaccination advice for dog breeders

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

Gerry Henry — Thu, 26 May 2011 09:30:27 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

You're never far from a rat in this country

Wynne

[/quote]So true and in so many ways.

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 26 May 2011 07:53:57 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]The decline that OnSwitch say has led to over 50% of owners in the East Midlands no longer vaccinating, and 30 to 40% in other regions. It looks like those figures will have come from the same survey you link to there, but Alison Lambert didn't give her source for OnSwitch's figures. [/quote]

Hmm - that's very interesting, because when I got the press release, I thought it was a bit misleading.

To quote: "Vaccination rates are falling faster in certain parts of the country. Nationally, 37% of people with unvaccinated animals said they had stopped in the past year to two years compared to 18% more than two years ago. The falls were sharper in some regions; North West 28% had stopped vaccinating in the past two years compared to 18% more than two years ago; West Midlands 38% (24%) East of England 52% (19%); London 37% (6%); South East 44% (10%); South West 33% (12%); Wales 50% (15%); Scotland 40% (32%)."

That's 37% of people with unvaccinated animals that have stopped in the past 1-2 years. NOT that vaccination levels themselves have dropped (ie that first sentence was not supported by any data in the press release). So I went and asked the PR company, and they confirmed that the YouGov stats show that vaccination rates have been stable between 2009 and 2011.

I think this is a case of people reading the wrong thing into the stats. The author of the press release read: "falling vaccination rates, vets need to be made aware (shocked, perhaps) into doing something to persuade more owners to get pets vaccinated"

I read: "Vaccination rates stable - that's great news. Demonstrates that vaccination is resilient to the effects of the recesssion, and that veterinary surgeons can continue to recommend both because it's good advice, and in the knowledge that vaccinators will likely heed the advice (more so, perhaps, than about worming or flea control?).

I don't dispute that a very large absolute number of animals remain unvaccinated. It's just that the YouGov stats don't show a decline in the last 3 years.

Erm - I'll look into your notifications again!

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

Julian Earl — Wed, 25 May 2011 22:35:45 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"][quote user="Julian Earl"] How would that go down with dog owners in view of the general decline in vaccinations I wonder?[/quote]

Wot decline?

[/quote]

The decline that OnSwitch say has led to over 50% of owners in the East Midlands no longer vaccinating, and 30 to 40% in other regions. It looks like those figures will have come from the same survey you link to there, but Alison Lambert didn't give her source for OnSwitch's figures.

[Since I'm replying to you Arlo, the notification of replies is definitely not working for me.]

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 25 May 2011 06:44:04 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"] How would that go down with dog owners in view of the general decline in vaccinations I wonder?[/quote]

Wot decline?

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

Julian Earl — Tue, 24 May 2011 17:41:00 GMT

We "see" Leptospirosis regularly around here, if by regularly one can accept one acutely jaundiced, vomiting, diarrhoeic, highly pyrexic dog with no vaccination history at an approximate rate of one per year. The confirmed diagnostic is difficult if not impossible but it is an assumed diagnosis.

Anyway, has anyone else noticed that the WSAVA report suggested vaccinating against Lepto every nine to ten months instead of yearly? How would that go down with dog owners in view of the general decline in vaccinations I wonder?

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 24 May 2011 17:40:10 GMT

I will admit that I have also never seen a case. However, I will also admit I haven't looked for it, and that as it is fairly easily treated with drugs that we use routinely in a sick animal before a diagnosis is often reached, then I have probably missed it...

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

Bob Russell — Tue, 24 May 2011 17:38:57 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

Just to "provoke"a bit more discussion:

I do vaccinate yearly for lepto, because I believe its not worth risking, BUT if lepto was so everywhere with rats, why aren't there many more cases in people and dogs? I have been a vet for over 35 years, 4 years in UK and have never seen a clinical case. In my present practice where I have been 4 years, farmdogs are very often not vaccinated yearly, but are very valuable as working dogs and brought in when sick, yet we have never had a lepto case. So although rats are everywhere, and a celebrity rower died from Weil's disease, is leptospirosis really epidemiologically an important disease?

(The breeding bitches on this farm are confined in kennels, yes probably in contact with rats, but the cattle are lepto negative).

[/quote]

Most rats seem to be clear of the disease. We have two areas within 30 miles of here where vets do see lepto but we don't! We clearly have healthy rats nearby.

Is distemper an important disease on a day to day basis? The answer is probably no but would you leave your own dog unprotected?

I don't have a crystal ball that lets me know if my patients are going to be going to high risk areas!

An odd dog picking up lepto and an odd human dying of it are, in the grand scheme of things unimportant (there are lots of dogs and lots of rowers!) unless that dog is yours or that rower is a relative!! Comment very tongue in cheek I promise!

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

mariette asselbergs — Tue, 24 May 2011 12:43:44 GMT

Just to "provoke"a bit more discussion:

(The breeding bitches on this farm are confined in kennels, yes probably in contact with rats, but the cattle are lepto negative).

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

Cat Henstridge — Sat, 21 May 2011 21:16:58 GMT

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

"Bitches confined": yes on his farm[/quote]If the bitches are running on a farm I'd suggest that the lepto risk is high so I'd strongly advise giving it annually

[/quote]

Yep, totally agree, they definitely need lepto, I am sure there are rats on the farm!

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

Laurence Webb — Sat, 21 May 2011 19:39:58 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

"Bitches confined": yes on his farm[/quote]If the bitches are running on a farm I'd suggest that the lepto risk is high so I'd strongly advise giving it annually

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

mariette asselbergs — Sat, 21 May 2011 17:24:02 GMT

"It sounds to me that you are trying to re-invent the wheel here - keep it simple".

Hi Niall,

I was just trying to find some advice from you guys on your vaccination routine with breeding bitches, taking into account the repeated advice to use schedules based on "core" vaccinations, and risk assessment. I have always advocated vaccination of pregnant bitches with the whole lot, thinking that this boosted maternal antibodies and thus protection of young puppies. If there was good evidence that triannual vaccinations of the "core" would be good enough for breeding bitches also (like for non breeding dogs), and if there were sound arguments against routine annual vaccination with the whole cocktail, then I might swing to triannual vaccination. I don't intend tore-invent the wheel, just hear what others do and think.

Mariette

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

mariette asselbergs — Sat, 21 May 2011 17:09:13 GMT

"Bitches confined": yes on his farm, he breeds champion working dogs. Definitely no problems with socializing....

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

Bob Russell — Thu, 19 May 2011 14:39:26 GMT

The WSAVA guidelines are quite sensible. My only issue is with the classification of diseases as 'core' or not. I consider Lepto to be core for all dogs, rats are common, Lepto is a zoonotic disease that can be fatal (an example being the Olympic rowing champion Andy Holmes, who twice partnered Sir Steve Redgrave to gold medal).

In cats I would classify FeLV as core in all outdoor cats (becomes more of a grey area as they get older).

I am tending towards the WSAVA guidance over individual data sheets but when I go off-licence it is to be more cautious rather than less!

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

Niall Taylor — Thu, 19 May 2011 09:43:00 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"] Just have a look at this "research" and then apply your backing, or not. When "research" is done by the party which directly benefits from that research results and conclusions may not be as impartial as one would expect.[/quote]

I am as sceptical as the next person (possibly more so) about the motives of drug companies, the only reason their products are researched is because they are constrained to do so by law. The research they do is subject to standards though and, whether we like it or not, it is the best evidence we have. There is independent research as well and reports from people like WSAVA (see a recent posting by Roger Meacock in the MMR and peer review thread), reports of adverse reactions etc all of which adds to the body of evidence available. So my point was not to slavishly believe everything a drug company tells us and accept it as gospel but never the less their recommendations, while seasoned with self interest, are based on science and are the best advice we have as to how to use their products.

What puzzled me about the OP was that there were a whole load of claims about different effects of various ad hoc vaccination regiemes, none of which seemed to be supported by any evidence at all. Hence my question, if there is evidence behind the claims I'd be interested to hear it.

Scepticism about drug companies is a rational stance but it shouldn't blind us to the genuine research that is available and it certainly doesn't give individuals leave to construct idiosyncratic vaccination regeimes regardless of that evidence.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Read "Bad Science"[/quote]

Have done, it's brilliant.

Niall

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

Anthony Todd — Wed, 18 May 2011 17:22:19 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]which is backed by research.[/quote]

Just have a look at this "research" and then apply your backing, or not. When "research" is done by the party which directly benefits from that research results and conclusions may not be as impartial as one would expect.

Read "Bad Science"

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

Niall Taylor — Tue, 17 May 2011 22:18:36 GMT

Strange question...

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]What advice do you give a dog breeder who asks which vaccinations he should give his bitches[/quote]

The manufacturer is the one who has done the research - the advice is on the data sheet.

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]Every year the complete cocktail with the aim of optimising the puppies' protection, but with the disadvantage of interference of maternal antibodies in the puppies' first vaccinations[/quote]

What gives you the idea that annual vaccination will be better for "puppies' protection", than the data sheet recommendations? How would you quantify the degree of maternal antibody interference with the puppies' first vaccination? Aren't those two concerns mutually exclusive?

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"] Or only triennial distemper and hepatitis, no leptospirosis (no risk), and annual parvo and KC?[/quote]

Which brand are you worried about, why would you give triennial CDV & CHV but annual CPV?

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"] If choosing the first option,would it be a good idea to mention this on the puppies' vaccination cards?[/quote]

Stick to the data sheet recommendations, that way if another vet or prospective owner wants to know what is going on they have a reference which is backed by research.

It sounds to me that you are trying to re-invent the wheel here - keep it simple.

Niall

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

Cat Henstridge — Tue, 17 May 2011 19:20:02 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]I meant "lepto no risk" because the bitches are always confined[/quote]

Always confined? Do you mean this breeder never takes the bitches out?! If so, I think you need to be discussing his socialisation policy along with his vaccination one!

Cat

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

Anthony Todd — Tue, 17 May 2011 19:16:58 GMT

[quote user="Alan Tevendale"]Having said that remember that no vaccine is 100% effective.[/quote]

I really wonder how true this, oft relied on statement, is?

I'm sure someone will produce evidence.

Regarding the three year vaccination regime, in some cases the supporting evidence is worthy of "Bad Science" in that protection, with one manufacturer, is judged to be obtained if 95% of animals have a fourfold increase in titre at 48 months.

What would be the increase in unvaccinated animals?

As another dinosaur once said to me "One breakdown in a million is a 100% failure rate as far as that owner is concerned".

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

Christopher Saul — Tue, 17 May 2011 18:32:51 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Not nice AND zoonotic[/quote]

Exactly. I always recommend lepto vaccination irresepective of what other vaccines are given; Imagine the legal implications if an owner contracted lepto from his or her dog and you hadn't pushed vaccination?

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

Alan Tevendale — Tue, 17 May 2011 17:25:13 GMT

Did you report that one to the manufacturer? Having said that remember that no vaccine is 100% effective.

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

Andrew Kent — Tue, 17 May 2011 17:18:20 GMT

I have had two cases of lepto this week, both in dogs whose vaccinations have lapsed but only by 2-3 months - which certainly raises concerns with regards to the vaccination companies saying you can go up to 3 months overdue without problems.

Andy

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 17 May 2011 15:59:42 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

You're never far from a rat in this country

[/quote]

That's my thinking. I saw a dog die from lepto a couple of years ago that was a lapsed vaccination (5 years lapsed if I remember correctly, full puppy course and a couple of boosters).

Not nice AND zoonotic.

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

mariette asselbergs — Tue, 17 May 2011 15:16:31 GMT

Fair enough!

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 17 May 2011 14:51:03 GMT

You're never far from a rat in this country

Wynne

Re: Vaccination advice for dog breeders

mariette asselbergs — Tue, 17 May 2011 13:32:32 GMT

I meant "lepto no risk" because the bitches are always confined, and the puppies too young to go out in the field. The latest recommendations seemed to be not to vaccinate dogs against leptospirosis if a risk assessment (not going in water, not getting into contact with rodents) would imply minimum risk). I myself have always vaccinated dogs annually with the whole lot, but some people seem to want to vaccinate only the minimum, or what is absolutely necessary, not just for financial reasons but because they believe it is unhealthy to vaccinate unnecessarily.

And yes you are right, Parvo vaccination seems to be OK every three years, its just that you see it so often and it is such an awful disease....