Warning

Re: Warning

Mark Rowland — Sat, 14 May 2011 21:19:48 GMT

[quote user="Martin Jones"]

Mark

Not wishing to prolong this unedifying debate - and I generally hold the view that one should always behave as though there's a camera running in the room - but in terms of flippant remarks, how would this one come across:

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]

After all I take clients hand over fist from practices where rabbit medicine is not thought of highly( in a joky sense of course). While those people are firing up their pots in their mind, Im taking £1700 from the client for the rabbit thoracotomy for its thymoma removal.

[/quote]

Absolutely, I couldnt agree more.

I qualified the post later in the discussion. It was written in haste and I was a bit hot under collar because I thought at the time that I had been subjected to a bit of cyber bullying. I can see however how it could be misread.

However, In the situation of a reporter slapping that onto my table and asking for comment. I would assume he had read the other remarks leading up to that one and be concerned about them. I would state my defense with the clients consent by going through the bill in detail to prove the money was not squandered and probably get the client in so the rabbit could bee seen, therefore turning a misunderstanding into a positive and hopefully into a feature of what we can do to care for rabbits in these days when clients expect more. I m not sure of what I would say if i was one of the other commentators apart from " Cheer up it was just a bit of black humour". I wouldnt feel comfortable with that

But as I said, the point was in my mind before your post.

In fact if you really want to know, the client was expecting a higher bill.

Whilst you've gone on to have a debate and defend your stance - and I think most of us are in agreement that rabbits deserve everything the owner is willing to pay for - can you see how this looks? When we talk about taking money from clients, the emphasis is seen to be on the financial gain rather than the benefits of treatment. If this one were to fall into the hands of the owner, you'd have a tough time wrigglng out of it.

We're all of us fallible. Except me, of course.

[/quote]

Re: Warning

Martin Jones — Sat, 14 May 2011 12:55:45 GMT

Mark

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]

[/quote]

We're all of us fallible. Except me, of course.

Re: Warning

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 14 May 2011 12:24:25 GMT

Hear hear Mark

Re: Warning

Mark Rowland — Sat, 14 May 2011 11:42:18 GMT

I accept that but people should always be careful about what they put on the internet. I posted a question on VIN about egg eating snakes which by a totally innocent round about route (New York, Florida, back here) got into the hands of the client concerned who could quite easily see it was I who posted the case. I made no comment about the client though could have. My thoughts were that I could have really set myself up for a fall. I see small mammal forums that regularly criticise vets, Do they need ammunition. I joke like everyone else though not in the ways I have heard. I would never put material like I have seen on the internet

Re: Warning

Bob Russell — Sat, 14 May 2011 11:11:12 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]

I hate the flippant attitude too... actually, I think I am more embarrassed by it. I too think GPs are great for kids. Chinchillas, (fed correctly) are great as pets too. My last one lived till over 20 so I thing they are worth things like orthopaedic surgery.

[/quote]

In this and many similar vocations it is normal and probably healthy to have a slightly black sense of humour. Rabbits are frustrating patients. Not sure I am overly concerned about a 'flippant' attitude. I would almost guarantee the posters with this apparent attitude do not take this attitude towards any of their real patients!

A bit of humour helps the veterinary world go round!

Re: Warning

Mark Rowland — Sat, 14 May 2011 11:01:36 GMT

Re: Warning

Bob Russell — Sat, 14 May 2011 11:00:38 GMT

Being slightly more serious. How often do you see GP's with mites now? I rarely do. I see ivomec related products are available in our local pet shop. Do they now get pet shop therapy that works?

Re: Warning

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 14 May 2011 10:52:19 GMT

But yes-GPs are the best childrens pets

Wynne

Re: Warning

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 14 May 2011 10:50:17 GMT

Rabbits are challenging-even worse than sheep for wanting todie-but we should always do our best for them and I hate the flippant attitude of some of you

Wynne

Re: Warning

Rob Reid — Sat, 14 May 2011 08:23:11 GMT

+1 for Guinea Pigs from me as well.

I have to say I do like rats as well - highly intelligent and bags of personality, but Evelyn's point about them forever urinating on you means that the good old Guinea Pig always gets my recommendation.

Re: Warning

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 13 May 2011 23:24:01 GMT

Nah. Rats urinate and defecate on you and their faeces are not nice. And they smell. And they hardly live any time at all.

Guinea pigs are the best.

Re: Warning

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 13 May 2011 22:36:40 GMT

erm....not!

I had guinea-pigs when I was young. They all limped from being dropped.

Rats are better. If their parents can get over their prejudice about a wild relative!

Re: Warning

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 13 May 2011 21:42:24 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Get guinea pigs instead - plus an avermectin to treat the mites!![/quote]

The best children's pet.

Re: Warning

Bob Russell — Fri, 13 May 2011 15:31:35 GMT

I can understand a lot of the cynicism with regard to treating rabbits. Unfortunately (usually for them!) they are one of the most challenging species to treat!

I sense a level of frustration in this thread - often rabbits are presented with very advanced disease, no funds to investigate and even with the best care and attention curl up their toes and die even after the condition is diagnosed and treatment started.

Rabbits should not be available in pet shops, should not be kept as bored bunnies in hutches, should come with compulsory insurance for those cases that are to get proper treatment.

Perhaps there should be compulsory pre bunny-buying courses to educate owners on the implications of owning and keeping rabbits. Many owners will have a rethink once the realities of keeping a rabbit well are!

Rabbits should be treated to the same standards as other animals but the owners should not expect many of them to get better!

Get guinea pigs instead - plus an avermectin to treat the mites!!

Re: Warning

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 12 May 2011 20:25:18 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I also think we have a bit of an issue with how far we go when we are treating these dumb animals. Some things that are done may keep the animal alive longer but at what quality of life? What pain and suffering does it go through at the time? [you cannot get rid of all pain]. An animal can't rationalise like we can 'it hurts now, but I will be better than I was before in a few months, so is worth it'.[/quote]

Agreed. But that is the same for whatever the species - be it rabbit, dog, cow or horse.

Re: Warning

Rob Reid — Thu, 12 May 2011 20:00:52 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I would say when I was at college 2/3rds of the neurology department ought to have been PTS[/quote]

You may not particularly like neurologists, but this seems a little harsh.....

[/quote]

LOL

Seriously though I think you're being a bit harsh Michael. When I was at College is was only about 1/2 the department....

Also pleased to see I am not in the total minority on here!

Re: Warning

Rob Davis — Thu, 12 May 2011 19:58:29 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I would say when I was at college 2/3rds of the neurology department ought to have been PTS[/quote]

You may not particularly like neurologists, but this seems a little harsh.....

Re: Warning

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 12 May 2011 17:27:00 GMT

[quote user="Rob Reid"]I guess I am in the minority on here then! I do know of several colleagues out there who agree with me though.[/quote]

I for one. Thankfully I see very few bunnies [professionally] but will treat them the best I can. Money invariably seems to be an issue. Think we have a rabbit to spay next week.

The first rabbit I bled as a new grad turned into a bad debt! That sort of thing puts you off.

I can honestly say I've never eaten anyone's pet rabbit. There's no great problem treating things that are intended to be eaten, I spend most of my time working with succulent sheep and mouth watering cows. Did a caesarian this morning and was thinking of steak for tea..........

I also think we have a bit of an issue with how far we go when we are treating these dumb animals. Some things that are done may keep the animal alive longer but at what quality of life? What pain and suffering does it go through at the time? [you cannot get rid of all pain]. An animal can't rationalise like we can 'it hurts now, but I will be better than I was before in a few months, so is worth it'.

I would say when I was at college 2/3rds of the neurology department ought to have been PTS. I could give you dozens of examples of operations that someone can offer but at what cost to the patient?

Just because we can do something it doesn't mean we should.

Re: Warning

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 12 May 2011 13:25:19 GMT

[quote user="Rob Reid"]I've had several clients who elected for euthanasia over surgery on their rabbit - £350 for a cystotomy for example.[/quote]

I've had people euthanase dogs and cats when the cost of treatment would be significantly below this. Your point?

It is also worth pointing out that rabbits SHOULD have the same lifespan as a large breed dog. Hmmm.......

[quote user="Rob Reid"]But as Richard has quite rightly pointed out, animal welfare is subjective and I don't think rabbits make good pets. Let's be honest who can say that in a domestic pet situation, the majority of our pet rabbits (and indeed some dogs and cats as well - Shar Peis etc included) a rabbit is free to express normal behaviour for example. [/quote]

This depends on whether you are referring to the hutch-confined children's pet, which has a miserable life, or an adult's appropriately cared-for pet, which probably has a better life than all those pet dogs who get walked once a day if they're lucky. I don't recommend a rabbit as a child's pet (or one that is easy to look after in any situation) but with good care, they can make excellent companions for people!

Do you not like to treat an indoor cat on the basis that it's welfare may be being compromised, or a great dane as it's lifespan is likely to be very short?

Rabbit's are the third most popular pet in this country. We should be offering them the same level of care as the other two species of popular pet - and if the general public still feel that ANY species is a better pet on the basis that they are disposable when they get ill, rather than being expensive to treat like cats and dogs, then we should be endeavoring to change this attitude. Not agree with it.

Re: Warning

CatherineThomas — Thu, 12 May 2011 13:15:56 GMT

The kind of people who are willing to pay thousands of pounds for surgery on their rabbit are usually the kind of people who will be providing a good environment and high welfare standars for their pet rabbit. So why shouldn't they receive the best care possible? Just because other people will leave a rabbit in a tiny hutch at the end of the garden. What we should be trying to do is educate people to improve the standard of keeping of rabbits.

Re: Warning

Rob Reid — Thu, 12 May 2011 13:01:21 GMT

I guess I am in the minority on here then! I do know of several colleagues out there who agree with me though.

In all seriousness, I am surprised that there are people out there who are willing to spend the same amount of money on their rabbit as it would cost to perform a TTA on a large dog. I am also surprised that there are vets who agree with this. Maybe we need to start charging more for our TTAs.....!!!!! Maybe it's an area thing, but my experience is that clients just aren't willing to do this. I've had several clients who elected for euthanasia over surgery on their rabbit - £350 for a cystotomy for example.

And for the record, I'm not just saying this because it is a rabbit. I will say (as I have said in another post) I treat all my rabbit patients with care and respect to their welfare - as I would do for any other animal presented to me, be it dog, cat, hamster, pigeon etc. But as Richard has quite rightly pointed out, animal welfare is subjective and I don't think rabbits make good pets. Let's be honest who can say that in a domestic pet situation, the majority of our pet rabbits (and indeed some dogs and cats as well - Shar Peis etc included) a rabbit is free to express normal behaviour for example.

If people ask me what pet I would recommend to them, I don't generally advise them to get a rabbit. And on the same subject I wouldn't advise them to get a Shar-Pei, Bulldog etc either. Am I wrong to advise people that in most situations rabbits do not make suitable pets? Or am I being too cynical here? Is this not part of my 'duty to promote and sustain public confidence in veterinary medicine?'

Re: Warning

Richard Fox — Thu, 12 May 2011 12:14:03 GMT

Totally agree :)

Re: Warning

Kate Richardson — Thu, 12 May 2011 12:14:03 GMT

I don't see what the problem is with doing surgery such as this in a rabbit if, as Mark says, it can be afforded (whether it is insured or not is irrelevant IMO) and if the owners want to go ahead with the procedure, having been explained to them the prognosis, risk factors and potential complications as one would with any animal, and the procedure is being undertaken by someone with experience in the procedure and the species. The fact that is a rabbit is irrelevant. Any animal could potentially die 6 months after a major procedure from something completely unrelated to that procedure.

Re: Warning

Clive Ansell — Thu, 12 May 2011 12:09:39 GMT

I cannot see any ethical dilemma here at all. A rabbit is no more or less deserving of medical or surgical treatment than any other species. The fact we have a member who is able to successfully carry out such a highly skilled and complex procedure in a rabbit is a credit to our profession. In addition the costs involved sound perfectly reasonable, even cheap I would suggest - I recently had an estimate for a thoracotomy and lung lobectomy in a Boxer for £4000.

If there is an ethical question mark anywhere, it is the carrying out of procedures on hideously deformed dogs and then condoning the continued breeding from them - someone else mentioned it, but the Shar Pei springs to mind

Re: Warning

Mark Rowland — Thu, 12 May 2011 12:00:41 GMT

Right I`m off to go and talk to some prep school kids about veterinary care of reptiles. I will be taking with me one of my rehome tortoises (The first one I speyed but thats ok cos she will outlive me) My stray snake (dont tell my wife about that one) that had all its guts hanging out following being stepped on. Fixed him for free but then he didnt have an owner so I was in the chair. And a bearded dragon (that a client has let me borrow). Not charging for the talk (even travel expenses) because education is an important part of our job. No Im not being smug. but since in a 2008 Telegraph survey, there were more reptiles being kept in the UK than dogs, I feel its important to let people know that treatment and care for reptiles is out there.