Raw food diets

Re: Raw food diets

Niall Taylor — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 08:48:12 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Sure, me too. But what do you feed your dogs on?

[/quote]

Mmmmmm, venison . Although I did once completely spoil what looked like a delicious roast saddle of venison with all the trimmings when I discovered (after cooking) that most of it was in fact raw haematoma (eeeow).

Sophia, I have always respected your views and enjoyed reading your posts although I may not agree entirely with them all. I can't help thinking if it was you rather than Lonsdale and crew in charge of the RMB thing they would be doing so much better.

Niall

Re: Raw food diets

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 25 Apr 2011 22:56:38 GMT

[quote user="sophia guymer"] and the feeling I get after cutting up a deer (roadkill) and having another 6-10 meals in the freezer[/quote]

Sure, me too. But what do you feed your dogs on?

Re: Raw food diets

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 25 Apr 2011 22:34:01 GMT

[quote user="sophia guymer"] I love feeding it, and the feeling I get after cutting up a deer (roadkill) and having another 6-10 meals in the freezer (yes I do freeze everything before feeding) is great![/quote]

Unless one of your colleagues has just euthanased it with barbiturtates...........

Re: Raw food diets

sophia guymer — Mon, 25 Apr 2011 22:24:29 GMT

Hi Niall,

I actually feed RMB (raw meaty bones) to my dog (by no means BARF of minced) and I can go along with most of what you say above. I do in fact advice people who are thinking of feeding RMB to read Tom Lonsdales books but always with the warning that he goes a bit far in it all and I don't agree with everything but his advice on HOW to feed it is very good. I don't agree all commercial foods are rubbish (lots are though) and also don't think all illnesses are due to food. I do think food has a great impact on teeth, skin (inc ears) and anal glands though(and in some cases behaviour too).

Still, I think it is a matter of each to it's own, I love feeding it, and the feeling I get after cutting up a deer (roadkill) and having another 6-10 meals in the freezer (yes I do freeze everything before feeding) is great! People that say it is no more work than going to the petshop and opening a bag of food are either very rich and can buy all the food at the butchers or lying!

Sophia

Re: Raw food diets

Niall Taylor — Mon, 25 Apr 2011 09:53:05 GMT

[quote user="alex gough"]

Raw food diets are banned from discussion in the general fora because of the heated nature of the debate, so they are in the controversial section. However, as that section has gone pretty quiet, no one might see a new post there, so I just thought I would flag up that I have posted a link to a critical review of raw food diets there. Any discussion about it should take place down there. (Hope that's ok Arlo).

alex[/quote]

The main result for me from the original debate was that in spite of, rather than because of its advocates, I have 'demystified' raw diets although the extreme tone of its evangelists makes it very difficult to appreciate any merit in it at all. I am more relaxed now when I hear people are feeding raw and less concerned re possible adverse effects although I will always make sure people are aware of the potential if they mention the subject.

Having joined a couple of raw diet lists to find out more their experiences are, on the whole pretty mundane. They discuss exactly the same things as any other owner group; dogs on raw diets get gastroenteritis, dermatitis and periodontal disease etc... exactly the same as dogs on any other diets. It does seem a difficult regeime to introduce dogs and cats onto at any age and there is much discussion of what age, how much, what size of chunks, how quickly to change and so forth as well as sourcing, processing (to freeze or not to freeze?) and storage problems and what supplements are needed on top of this (supposedly ideal and complete) diet. In some cases where elderly animals of 16 or 17 years of age are made to switch to raw meat and bones having been used to a lifetime of commercial diets I think the advice goes too far and the dogma becomes blind to animal welfare - if an animal has got to that age on commercial diets, what's the problem?

What I do find though is that such groups are "gateways" for other, even more ridiculous beliefs such as homeopathy, anti-vaccination, anti-modern medicine and drugs generally. Once you believe that commercial diets cause cancer, skin problems, immune mediated problems etc... as many of these people do without reason or evidence then it is just a short step to believing that these other things are true as well, and that's far more dangerous.

They get mixed up between types of evidence too. It's all very well collecting anecdotes about dogs thriving on raw diets, that's reassuring for anyone contemplating such a route (although adverse effects are rarely discussed) but to then go on and accuse commercial diets of causing all the ills under the sun, as above, (the "crap in a bag" school of thought) is just silly, but they can't see it that way. Lonsdale's books are regarded as the ultimate, unassailable reference for all things dietary, his views are never questioned. Very often if someone is having difficulty with a vet or a relative who refuses to "come over" they are directed to lend them a copy of his book as if enlightenment will automatically follow. Like the paper Alex has linked to there is just no decent evidence to support the RMB case - anecdotes are fair enough for informal advice but anything more solid just isn't out there.

There is a major lifestyle component to the whole thing too. From the tone of many of the advocates they relish the 'icky' nature of the whole thing - how best to split rabbit heads, the virtues or otherwise of letting your dog hunt and kill wild rabbits, the merits of obtaining a deer carcase and "simply chucking it outside the back door" for the dogs to feed on for the following week, confrontations with relatives who are unbelievers. They seem to relish in the shock value and the novelty of the whole thing.

One thing I would probably agree with the RMBers on is about the BARF or minced raw diets. My hunch would be that if there is any merit at all to RMB it would be in dental disease where the mechanical action of chewing skin, tough connective tissue and bones of the correct type might help reduce the incidence of periodontal disease (although there are obviously plenty of other ways of achieving this without the inconvenience of feeding raw and RMB doesn't eliminate dental disease). Feeding a raw diet minced would seem to give the worst of both worlds - you get all the potential risks of bacterial contamination or parasites but miss out on the one thing which might actually be of benefit. Of course though, the BARFers are just as evangelical and self righteous as the RMBers - whose dogma to believe !

Niall

Re: Raw food diets

Mark Holmes — Wed, 13 Apr 2011 11:04:45 GMT

Interesting article, it doesn't however look at the issue of biological appropriate diets. For example high CHO diets in cats. Not that I'm a BARF fanatic but I have for a long time had concerns about diets high in CHO particularly in cats but also in human diets. I have recently reduced my CHO intake and lost a stone in weight and several cm around my waist with very little effort or hunger. I have also paridoxically had much more energy. (and please I know its an anecdote!)

Re: Raw food diets

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:43:03 GMT

Good idea, Alex.

Thinking about it, the problem is that discussions held over in 'controversial' tend to slip off the screen pretty fast, and I think perhaps your link is worthy of greater note!

So I think we should work on the basis that new threads always start in the main forums, from where they are transferred to 'controversial' if they get out of hand, or if they are clearly trying to dominate the main forums (we haven't had a diet discussion for a while now, so this one's OK).

Here's Alex's link to the new study for discussion:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3003575/?tool=pubmed