Caesar Milan kicking dogs

Re: Caesar Milan kicking dogs

sophia guymer — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 22:16:07 GMT

[quote user="Catherine Williams"]Leave Cesar's techniques to him and behind closed doors[/quote]

I do agree with that. But just because I have no say in any of that, it doesn't give me or anyone else the right to bad mouth him and his techniques as such. I would in no way shape or form think it is ok for anyone to alpha roll a puppy (or any dog for that matter, unless done by a trained 'professional' in very carefully chosen circumstances) and tell all my clients to use pos reinforcement (which follows that they also use neg punishment) with very good results, also in cases with aggression. I would always avoid confrontation by the owner because as you say, their timing is notorious and I personally have not got the time to stand next to them to make sure they get it right. Pos reinf/neg punish is the safer option and nicer for the dog and owner BUT Cesar often needs quick fixes and that it is not!

Re: Caesar Milan kicking dogs

Bob Russell — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 15:22:12 GMT

I have always used the 'gentle' method of psychology in training both for dogs and children. I have used the same basic methods to train my children as my dogs and vice versa.

I have been left with both mad runaway dogs and mad runaway children - they always seem happy but I am sure this isn't the way it is meant to be!

Re: Caesar Milan kicking dogs

Catherine Williams — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 15:15:28 GMT

[quote user="sophia guymer"]That is exactly my point in every discussion about Cesar. He works with 'last chance' dogs, they need a quick fix. Even though I don't necessarily use it myself a lot, tend to go for the positive reinforcement/counter conditioning (dogs are not yet at that end stage when I usually see them) I have no problem with Cesar's approach.[/quote]

and that is the root of my problem with him, he is treating the desperate last chance cases, the people watching his programmes and copying him are not.

I can set aside the fact that I don't believe there is any evidence for hierarchy based training - I know a lot of the debates centre on whether you believe in dominance. His approach does seem to work for him - whether that be the calm confidence he has in what he is doing or the fact that most of the time when he is using punishment it is well timed. It is not how I want to interact with my dogs, I want a trusting partnership, not a slightly cautious relationship where trust is tempered with wariness. I work with positive reinforcement & negative punishment, and I have seen this work even with significant dog aggressive cases.

My problem is that people sit at home and watch his programmes and borrow bits of his technique, it seeps into your psyche even if you do not intentionally want to pick it up. However the majority of people have horribly poor timing or poor understanding of how to implement a technique. So a distracting "nudge" with a foot when well timed becomes a simple, non-productive punishment if timed too late, and if it doesn't work the first time then try again. How many people do you hear going "sit, sit, sit....SIT!" - is there not a danger this becomes nudge, nudge, nudge..kick. If someone borrows from the positive reinforcement camp with terribly timing or misunderstanding then the worst you'll get is slow progress.....but you're probably still classically conditioning the dog to like what it sees - there is no harm. If you borrow punishment techniques and do it badly then I'm afraid that is abuse. I don't deny that punishment works and can be very useful.......set your dog up that the first time he tries to counter surf it sounds like the sky's falling down, he wont do it again....but it requires very good timing. It also needs understanding of the cause, punish a dog that is fear aggressive to other dogs and you could well add to his problems.

Techniques that Cesar uses may work for him but do we really believe that people listen to the "don't try this at home" caution. People do mimic him.... badly! I now cringe when someone comes in and roughly handles their puppy biting puppy because they need to assert themselves over him. It's not necessary! It also doesn't always work out...I have a Rottie that I treat that as a slightly bolshy 12wk puppy was taken from our puppy party by a male colleague and placed in an alpha rollover.....since that time he became increasingly aggressive towards men and has required significant treatment to correct this. He's fine with me but he is not trustful of strangers.

Leave Cesar's techniques to him and behind closed doors, they may be appropriate in some cases but not for every pet. Try other techniques first, they may not be as quick fix but wouldn't you rather nurture than bully!

Re: Caesar Milan kicking dogs

sophia guymer — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:24:46 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]alternative now is euthanasia[/quote]

That is exactly my point in every discussion about Cesar. He works with 'last chance' dogs, they need a quick fix. Even though I don't necessarily use it myself a lot, tend to go for the positive reinforcement/counter conditioning (dogs are not yet at that end stage when I usually see them) I have no problem with Cesar's approach.

Re: Caesar Milan kicking dogs

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:38:19 GMT

The dogs in that clip were all showing unrestrained aggression. I should imagine that with a lot of them alternative training has been attempted - and the only alternative now is euthanasia - hmm.....

Re: Caesar Milan kicking dogs

Bob Russell — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:35:50 GMT

A softly softly approach to problem dogs is always preferable to one involving some element of force/coercion but it should always be remembered that dogs must appreciate their position in the hierarchy (as should children!).

It appears we have a Shiba Inus on our books now six years old. Never been a problem and was very cute as a puppy!

Re: Caesar Milan kicking dogs

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:29:22 GMT

[quote user="Andrew Mellor"]shiba inus[/quote]

I learn something new every day.....had to google that one!

Re: Caesar Milan kicking dogs

Andrew Mellor — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 12:14:39 GMT

I use his techniques, I always tell my owners before I do anything physical and have had no objections when it is explained to them, the most dramatic example I have was an extremely experienced ( >30yr) rottweiller breeder/handler/shower who came to my surgery in tears as she had finally changed breed to shiba inus after her previous 4 rotties got bone tumours, this 12 week shiba was terrorising her, she was terrified of it and it was totally out of control biting lunging at her face etc. I discussed the problem and she allowed me to pin the puppy to the table as caesar will do with red zone dogs he relaxed after only about 1 minute and then the firm handling became gentle restraint and petting, once fully relaxed I got the owner to swap places with me and she " held " him there , after a few minutes we released him, he stayed relaxed lying on the table and fell asleep - not sturring when I gave him his vaccination even. There has never beenso much as a growl out of this dog since we are 2 years on and he is winning every show he enters and is the most contented dog.

Re: Caesar Milan kicking dogs

Bob Russell — Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:03:44 GMT

The dogs do not seem particularly distressed but are certainly well aware of what is being done. Compare this to the 'natural justice' within a pack and it seems mild.

I am not familiar with this Cesar and his methods but if they work I would not get all up in arms about it. These dogs seem to have quite severe behavioural problems!

My main concerns would be with client education. It is easy for a sideways tap to become a kick. This is a vulnerable and potentially sensitive area which I presume is why the technique seems to work.

Interesting!

Re: Caesar Milan kicking dogs

sophia guymer — Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:49:20 GMT

[quote user="david hopper"]Having seen him work in the live situation [/quote]

Really? Where was this, I am jealous.

I am not a great fan of telling owners to do the tap thing as it does too easily turn into a kick but I have to admit to not having any problem with Cesar's approach. Personally I use the positive reinforcment way mainly at the moment both with my own dogs and with clients and their dogs (I do some behaviour consultations) and find it very rewarding both for the animal and the owner.

Cesar has been having a lot of bad press but a lot of it is due to pieces of video's rather than whole episodes and as David said, it is totally out of context in this way and easily taken the wrong way.

A local behaviourist I have befriended, is very much against Cesar's way and keeps sending me lots of these clips. Admittedly if you were to only see those litte bits they look very condemming. Cesar often works with 'dogs on death row' and is a last resort. People need a quick fix and positive reinforcement tends to take some time.

There are lots of ways that lead to Rome! (not sure if this is an english saying too, but we use it in holland)

Re: Caesar Milan kicking dogs

David Hopper — Wed, 16 Mar 2011 11:24:16 GMT

Cesar Millan uses the technique to break the concentration or fixation that the dog has on something rather like someone would tap someone on the shoulder to distract their attention away from a computer screen to engage them if the verbal greeting failed. It is a gentle tap not a punishment hit. It works rather like the short sharp 'psst' noise he recommends to attract the dog's attention which works well when I am trying to get a dog to sit still on the weighing machine. Having seen him work in the live situation as well as on the TV, his methods are gentle and effective. I have learnt a lot from his methods and probably use them daily in my work. As usual, a piece of video edited out of context conveying the wrong message!

Re: Caesar Milan kicking dogs

Mark Holmes — Wed, 16 Mar 2011 10:37:31 GMT

I know behaviorists are all threatened/up in arms about Caesar but as previously said a firm controlled bit of foot is not abuse. I tend to take guidance on the treatment of dogs from the way dogs treat each other andI have yet to see a dog train/discipline/influence another dog's behaviour another through reward based techniques.

Re: Caesar Milan kicking dogs

Gerry Henry — Wed, 16 Mar 2011 09:27:48 GMT

If a gentle backheel is abuse I suppose slapping a child on the back of the legs is a beating.

Re: Caesar Milan kicking dogs

Laurence Webb — Wed, 16 Mar 2011 00:25:01 GMT

No particular point, but I'd be interested whether kicking is a technique recommended by many qualified behaviourists.

If it is, do they believe that the heal of the foot into the abdomen/groin of a dog is the best method of applying the kick. Should it be applied gently so the dog jumps or harder so that the dog's hindquaters skid sideways or the dog yelps then sinks to the floor?

Re: Caesar Milan kicking dogs

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 15 Mar 2011 22:39:48 GMT

Laurence - do you have a point? A gentle tap with a food isn't really going to hurt the dog. Sometimes a dog needs a gentle tap to bring it into line.