Canine Vaccicheck - serology instead of boosters?

Re: Canine Vaccicheck - serology instead of boosters?

Pete Wedderburn — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 23:42:36 GMT

Some feedback via VIN which many of you will probably already know. Perhaps these serology test kits are especially useful for young animals of breeds where there may be a question about the response to vaccination, or if a young dog has an uncertain vaccine background. In young animals, antibodies alone may be the most significant part of the body's immune response. However in older animals, cell mediated immunity and memory cells etc are more important. So for an adult animal that's been regularly vaccinated, it could be argued that any antibody level is enough to suggest that within hours, the rest of the body's immune system will have mobilised defence mechanisms. I think this means that there's debate over the threshold "protected" levels that are listed. Still, it does seem to be the basis of something that could help vets who are in a situation where they don't want to take the perceived risk of vaccinating an animal that's had a previous reaction, by demonstrating that there's some protection already there......

Re: Canine Vaccicheck - serology instead of boosters?

James Allsop — Sat, 19 Feb 2011 12:30:28 GMT

When I phoned the vaccine company about the puppy I gave steroid to they said as i only gave dexadresson and the vaccine is in the systen for at least 7 days there should still be plenty of time for the immune system to recover from the steroid and respond to the vaccine. Im not aware of any clinical trials to confirm this and it was about 5+ years ago.

Re: Canine Vaccicheck - serology instead of boosters?

Julian Earl — Sat, 19 Feb 2011 11:31:57 GMT

I agree that it does seem bizarre that steroids were reported as having no effect but IIRC it was stated as though it had been tested. Whether it was a full clinical trial I do not know.

Re: Canine Vaccicheck - serology instead of boosters?

Bob Russell — Sat, 19 Feb 2011 11:17:23 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

I have had numerous cases over the years where owners have told me about the reactions that happened to their pets and the precautions taken by the vet to prevent them happening again. Some have used antihistamines and one gave a dexadreson injection at the same time as the vaccine!

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Many years ago, when Parvo was the new kid in town in the mid-eighties in fact, Intervet produced a series of I think six cassettes* all about vaccination. On one of these, it was stated very clearly that the use of steroids at the time of vaccination was shown to have no effect of the antibody response. I think the steroid used was betamethasone.

*Cassettes: recorded-thingummyjigs with sound on that came after round vinyl discs, before bright shiny CDs, and which made a distinct hissing noise through which one could sometimes hear music and voices.

[/quote]

I am not sure if clinical trials have ever been done to check the compatibility of vaccination and relatively high potency steroids. I have to admit I do not change my booster policy for those on low dose steroids but do warn owners there may be reduced efficacy with protection.

When I spoke to Virbac about this case the reaction was a quiet 'umm' and the comment 'perhaps not the best way of doing it!'.

The idea of vaccinating and steroids concurrently does seem a little odd! The dog had no ill effects from the vaccine I gave! The dog had received a steroid injection with each vaccination for a number of years!

Re: Canine Vaccicheck - serology instead of boosters?

James Allsop — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 16:24:42 GMT

I've had 2 suspect vaccine reactions reactions:

1 - 1st puppy vaccine (Eurican i think) came back into the practice approx 1hr after with swollen head - gave dex and responded well. Contacted company and adv that prob the lepto component and to monitor after 2nd vac but probably wouldnt need to change brands - followed this protocol and pup was fine at second vac.

2 - My puppy - 1st vaccine (Eurican) all OK, 2nd vac 5mins after vaccine (done at home so no medical supplies - well its only a vaccine....) severe bradicardia and collapse HR 40bpm, membranes white. Picked dog up and put into car to take to surgery for some meds - dog back to normal and waggy tail before could start car. Again phoned company and adv that shouldnt need to change vaccine at booster - Gave Eurican (brought some dex home with me this time) and no problems - since had Procyon and always been fine.

I have a general concern about relying on serology to determine protection as it seems widely accepted that ab levels do not correlate well with protection and how often do you repeat your serology - 12months, 6.... every 30days?

Re: Canine Vaccicheck - serology instead of boosters?

Julian Earl — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 16:13:41 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

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Re: Canine Vaccicheck - serology instead of boosters?

Tim Mainland — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 12:13:25 GMT

An in house kit for distemper and parvo anitbodies came on the market a few years back. I bought a 10 test kit and offered it as an alternative to a booster and at similar cost. Not one taker before it went out of date 9mths later. Lesson learnt.

Re: Canine Vaccicheck - serology instead of boosters?

Alan Tevendale — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 10:14:26 GMT

I've only ever seen one true allergic reaction to a vaccination. We had a new grad start and her first consult was a first vacc - good way to start I thought, nice and easy feel good consult. 10 mins after the vacc the pup was in acute resp distress. Responded well to treatment. The second vaccination was given after piriton and hospitalisation - no problems. Every year now we buy a different vacc from a neighbouring practice for that animal and no further problems. Still felt sorry for the new grad.

Re: Canine Vaccicheck - serology instead of boosters?

Peter Ding — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 08:53:20 GMT

[quote user="Pete Wedderburn"]

Not sure about the idea of a killed vaccine being more likely to provoke an allergic reaction. I thought it was the protein in the carrier that was the issue.....

[/quote]

Nor am I, i would agree the adjuvant is usually incriminated in literature in local vaccine reactions, but are those true allergic reactions? If the adjuvant includes a protein then a true allergic reaction is more likely.

However I thought dead vaccines tended to have adjuvants included, whereas live ones do not. And of course presumably a dead organism with ruptured cell/virus wall will have more proteins exposed to the immune system?

We used to do Parvo blood tests routinely on all puppies after using Nobivac Parvo at 10-12 weeks, several hundred all told. We only ever found one puppy with an apparent inadequate immune response: a Rottie, repeating the vaccine had no affect. However the manufacturers indicated that the dog would almost certainly be immune, but that this individual was probably just not circulating antibodies in its bloodstream!

That tends to make one question the presumptions around reliability of immunological blood test interpretation when the result indicates little or no protection!

Re: Canine Vaccicheck - serology instead of boosters?

Claire Fisher — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 20:50:02 GMT

[quote user="Pete Wedderburn"]

So what did you do about annual boosters after that? You'd have to be brave to go ahead, especially if the science tells us that after a few years, dogs have long standing immunity vs distemper, parvo, hepatitis. At the same time, how can you be sure to protect a dog vs possible infection.

I think it's a tricky one, and I think that the Vaccicheck could provide one way out for vets in this situation.

Not sure about the idea of a killed vaccine being more likely to provoke an allergic reaction. I thought it was the protein in the carrier that was the issue.....

[/quote]

She was subsequently rehomed to one of the nurses in the practice (for unrelated issues) who decided not to vaccinate her the next year. Not sure after that as I moved on.

Re: Canine Vaccicheck - serology instead of boosters?

Pete Wedderburn — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 20:43:52 GMT

I think it's a tricky one, and I think that the Vaccicheck could provide one way out for vets in this situation.

Not sure about the idea of a killed vaccine being more likely to provoke an allergic reaction. I thought it was the protein in the carrier that was the issue.....

Re: Canine Vaccicheck - serology instead of boosters?

Claire Fisher — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 20:38:07 GMT

I had one - vaccinated a JRTx and within half an hour it was dyspnoeic and cyanotic. Gave it iv dex and within 5 minutes it was back on its feet like nothing had ever happened.

Was very scary at the time as it was a few weeks into my first job and it was a saturday surgery so I was on my own.

Re: Canine Vaccicheck - serology instead of boosters?

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 15:46:08 GMT

The big question is - how much? I had a very long protracted conversation once with a breeder concerned with over vaccination. I looked into serology and the cost from Idexx for the serology alone was more than a booster and with costs for blood sample, postage, interpretation it worked out to be around double the cost of a booster. Having looked it up and costed it all she decided just to go with a booster after-all [ I was mindful to point out that she may still need the booster after the serology!].

Our neighbours dog's head swelled up the day it had it's vaccine last year, so we got a different brand from a neighbouring practice and no problem this. Could have been an allergy, different brand caused no problems. Might not have happened but why risk it? We have done the same for them at least once.

Re: Canine Vaccicheck - serology instead of boosters?

Bob Russell — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 15:38:44 GMT

Having never knowingly seen a clear cut 'allergic' reaction to a vaccine over a 20+ year period I would be interested in what actually happens! What symptoms are people actually classifying as 'allergic' reactions. Is it brand related perhaps?

I have had numerous cases over the years where owners have told me about the reactions that happened to their pets and the precautions taken by the vet to prevent them happening again. Some have used antihistamines and one gave a dexadreson injection at the same time as the vaccine!

My policy is to vaccinate and admit for a few hours. I have yet to see a problem in any of these animals.

I like the idea of the vaccicheck as an option especially for the black and tan breeds that are reputed to respond poorly.

Edit - I did not mean to suggest this as an answer - sorry!

Re: Canine Vaccicheck - serology instead of boosters?

Peter Ding — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 15:22:17 GMT

Are not "allergic" reactions more likely to be due to the dead Lepto component or any non specific immunostimulant therein?