Digit amputation in a calf??

Re: Digit amputation in a calf??

Sarah Wheeler — Sun, 20 Feb 2011 23:10:20 GMT

I'm Canadian and back there you can get aspirin boluses for cattle. Brilliant things. They cost next to nothing and they did seem to help a lot.

Re: Digit amputation in a calf??

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 20 Feb 2011 12:35:37 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]I am not so sure that amputation gets the calf out of pain quickly![/quote][quote user="Julian Earl"]But I certainly don't think we should dismiss the pain of an open wound, dressed or otherwise, being used on uneven ground for a period of weeks.[/quote]

I think it depends a lot on the case. I always get farmers to get them back into cubicles rather than a straw yard so the remaining claw gives a good height difference.

If you go back a week later to change the bandage they are almost all using the leg better than when you took the claw off. Touching the wound doesn't seem to elicit huge amounts of pain, whereas handling the infected joint to begin with often does.

On balance I think it's a worthwhile salvage procedure. I had a play for a time with some joint coring and flushing but still had to remove a few of them, giving a bigger bill and no instant reduction in pain.

We can't go shooting every cow that goes lame, nor can we expect to spend £10 per day giving a cow NSAIDS. Suppose if we could give cattle bute at pennies per day they would use it. I think if we did we'd get a load more abomasal ulcers!

Re: Digit amputation in a calf??

Sarah Wheeler — Sun, 20 Feb 2011 08:49:14 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

[quote user="Richard Stephenson"]

If you are going to do something useful here I think amputation is your ONLY option. A well established joint sepsis will not respond to flushing as the bacteria will certainly have colonised the synovial membranes by now and produced sufficient collaginase to destroy the cartilage. Amputation is a relatively simple and economic option and will get the calf out of pain quickly.

[/quote]

Totally agree, except I am not so sure that amputation gets the calf out of pain quickly! It may reduce the pain gradually until it has healed over, compared to the ever-increasing pain of a septic joint, and for that reason euthanasia is also an option.

But I certainly don't think we should dismiss the pain of an open wound, dressed or otherwise, being used on uneven ground for a period of weeks. I think that there is a serious discussion to be had over whether amputations should be carried out at all when analgesia is so rarley used for long-term therapy in cattle.

[/quote]

Quite. You wouldn't chop your own foot off and then go back to work the following day.

Yet we expect it from these cows.

(And my calf has been having metacam)

Re: Digit amputation in a calf??

Julian Earl — Sat, 19 Feb 2011 11:09:22 GMT

[quote user="Richard Stephenson"]

[/quote]

Re: Digit amputation in a calf??

Sarah Wheeler — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 22:40:13 GMT

I've only flushed carpuses and hocks and they were hard enough. I didn't fancy trying to get two needles into the DIP joint of this calf, she is very small.

Thanks for all your advice.

Re: Digit amputation in a calf??

Martin Jones — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 09:13:47 GMT

Sorry to hear that, Sarah. It does sound like the end for this patient. You could try IVRA, but I think you'd be prolonging suffering rather than actually helping.

I don't necessarily agree with the comments about amputation being the only choice in these cases, although I respect others' experience in the matter. A few (!) years back I was involved in a couple of papers on joint lavage in calves, and we found that it was actually a very effective treatment, although persistence was required in many cases. I seem to remember an 85% success rate, although this would inevitably be lower in practice.

My issue is that I'd regard amputation as a salvage procedure rather than a treatment, and something to be viewed as a last resort. If joint flushing is unsuccessful, then amputation is a reasonable next step; if amputation is performed first, then that joint is lost forever. Cost is an ever-present issue in large animal practice, and we're all bound by it - although, for clinical interest, we can sometimes do things on a budget.

Just lucky for us that the cascade doesn't cover surgical procedures.

It sounds like you did your best on this one, Sarah. Sometimes, they just get away from you.

Re: Digit amputation in a calf??

Sarah Wheeler — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 21:26:46 GMT

I fear this might be a futile exercise :( as when I went back today the fetlock has now blown up. It's diffusely swollen and hard and very painful. I couldn't palpate the joint pockets as there is so much soft tissue swelling. There is another cut over the lateral side of the fetlock. It is granulated but discharging around the edges so I put an animalintex on it to re assess tomorrow.

Re: Digit amputation in a calf??

Alan Tevendale — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 17:39:05 GMT

I'm completely with Richard on this one. The majority of joint sepsis cases I've seen have not responded to even aggressive flushing and as previously mentioned if this calf isn't worth a fortune then cost will be prohibitive. As Richard mentioned amputation has to be your only option.

Re: Digit amputation in a calf??

Richard Stephenson — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 17:30:47 GMT

Sarah,

One problem you mustn't overlook is that if you persist with conservative treatment the overloading of the contralateral limb due to pain will result in gross angular deformity. Surprisingly many young cattle do well with cleat amputation (although I always found hind limb cases more successful).

My advice would be give it a go - you've nothing to loose!

Yours,

Richard Stephenson.

Re: Digit amputation in a calf??

Kate Richardson — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 17:05:03 GMT

I'm no cow vet , but regarding honey, it is probably one of the best things we have started using in our practice for any infected wound, especially dog bites. We use medical grade manuka honey, but with small animals it is much easier to dress cleanly and maintain cleanliness, compared to a farm animal, so I am sure that bog standard supermarket honey would probably be adequate in this situation and MUCH cheaper. In Australia several years ago, people were using shop bought honey on large horse wounds and it worked just fine.

Re: Digit amputation in a calf??

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:43:16 GMT

See why I'm glad I no longer do farm work-though I still like cows

Wynne

Re: Digit amputation in a calf??

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:39:07 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Agree with Martin COPIOUS lavage-5l bags of sterile saline, (more than 1 per day )with antibiotic-crystapen/gentamycin in last flush Flush daily,and dress keep calf in clean well bedded pen preferably straw-easier said than done on modern farms-honey pref manuka excellent idea[/quote]

I don't doubt that this could be saved if money was no object. Dressings are dear, 5 litres of hartmans is £10 cost price to us. With daily flushing, dressings and antibiotics you could spend £40/50 a day, before you charge for time.

Unless he is wanting to spend money and it's a valuable calf I think chopping it off is still for the best.

My understanding the only difference between Tesco value honey and mankuna honey was marketing!

Re: Digit amputation in a calf??

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 15:01:06 GMT

Agree with Martin COPIOUS lavage-5l bags of sterile saline, (more than 1 per day )with antibiotic-crystapen/gentamycin in last flush Flush daily,and dress keep calf in clean well bedded pen preferably straw-easier said than done on modern farms-honey pref manuka excellent idea Good luck

Wynne

Re: Digit amputation in a calf??

Martin Jones — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:04:59 GMT

If there's a hole there, then all is not lost. Simple lavage through the hole will be pretty effective, and maintain sterile dressings for a while (with, dare I say it, honey).

If costs can be set aside, this could be a winner. Any pictures available?

Re: Digit amputation in a calf??

Sarah Wheeler — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 13:17:55 GMT

There's a pretty big hole into the joint (at least 1.5 cm) so I'm not sure how a joint flush would work? Plus the hoof is so small I don't know if I'd get a big enough needle into the joint.

I am going to have a little look at it again this afternoon and if I can convince him, I am going to take the claw off.

Re: Digit amputation in a calf??

Martin Jones — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 09:15:33 GMT

If you're prepared to meet the farmer half-way with respect to goodwill and costs etc, how about a joint / tendon sheath flush? Relatively simple, and if done quickly, often curative - particularly if you follow it up at 48 hours.

i/v xylazine @ 0.1mg/kg, followed by i/v ketamine @ 2mg/kg, gives enough sedation for 15-20 mins. top ups as a combined mix at half-dose. 18/19g needles for ingress, 14g for egress, all you need is a giving set and 1-2 litres sterile saline, with a strong person to really squeeze. Lincocin / oxytet instillation is sometimes mooted.

Perhaps done at the surgery as a 'loss leader', in someone's dinner hour and charged for drugs only. Failing that, take the claw as it's likely to grow relatively normally in any case - most breakdowns are within 6-9 months, after which time the support is generally strong enough. In fast growing animals, the distal anatomy adapts very well.

Re: Digit amputation in a calf??

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 23:11:49 GMT

I amputated a digit on a calf about 3 months old. It had it's foot trapped in a gate cross piece and 'deshelled' the claw. Rather bloody when I got there.

Just did IVRA with tiny 21G 5/8 needle and 10ml local. Removal just as you would in a cow. Did fine. I know she was kept and calved, but will ask farmer how she got on. Did give a little Xylazine IV mainly to get the local in with no kicking.

Give it a go!