PSS complaint

Re: PSS complaint

Julian Earl — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 16:17:07 GMT

[quote user="Martin Jones"]

Last year we had a partially disintegrated fin whale wash up on a local beach; it would probably have been 60ft long when alive. Naturally, the local populace descended for souvenirs but when the smell got too bad, they stayed away - at which point I duly got my licence from Natural England and dissected off a vertebra.

Unfortunately, the whale had been washed up on a spring (very high) tide, so was unlikely to move off again for some time. The National Trust, which owns the beach car park, decided that this would be bad for business and Easter was fast approaching, so they hired a local digger and driver, and sent ONE BLOKE down to cut it up with a small machete. No PPE, just a blunt knife. The memory of watching him attack it, like a toothless sheep going at a Sherman tank, kept me warm through the winter.

Eventually, the beach cafe 'lent' him a serrated knife, which helped. A little. I seem to remember that, at about the same time, the Trust made the poor guy homeless as they wanted to rent out his home to tourists. And we think we have bad bosses.....

[/quote]

That would be the bread knife for cutting the sandwiches then? Remind us exactly where this cafe is please...

Re: PSS complaint

Martin Jones — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 15:50:11 GMT

Re: PSS complaint

Richard Fox — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 07:31:21 GMT

LOL - Barf. I did an elephant which took 4 pathologists most of the day to dissect - spend the next day i bed a crippled

Re: PSS complaint

Mark Holmes — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 07:28:38 GMT

I remember climbing into the carcass of a 30ft long whale when at Uni. Which had washed up and was dead some time. I smelt bad that day!

Re: PSS complaint

Richard Fox — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 15:30:26 GMT

I think one needs to get it in perspective - if you do watersports in river courses you are a higher risk of getting Lepto - period - NOT from a PM!

And no I would never recommend swimming in digestive juices /autolytic and purulent abdominal contents from any animal - howver have you done a full PM on a 600-700 Kg horse which has been laying in a hot field with a rug on over the weekend - I think that's they got the idea of bubble wrap from! I am afraid PM on large animals = mucky!

Oh one thing - I would never do a primate without proper gloving, suit/respirator or a CAT 3 cabinet! given the numerous zoonotic/inter-transmissable human viruses they can harbour unlike domesticated animals!

Re: PSS complaint

bob lehner — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 15:25:44 GMT

[quote user="Richard Fox"]I have spent many an hour bent over post morteming a horse with blood, fluids, autolytic material seeing over my gloves and even in my wellies sometimes.[/quote]

Yuk -- but I trust you wouldn't recommend this as 'best practice'.

[quote user="Richard Fox"]BTW Lepto organisms are extremely fragile in the environment [/quote].

Tell that to the folks that have died from leptospirosis.

Re: PSS complaint

Richard Fox — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 13:16:05 GMT

I am afraid not Bob - I dont think that the environment is the issue - surely its the animal which is the vector. Not many PM rooms have Cat3 facilities you would need to eliminate exposure to pathogens - I have spent many an hour bent over post morteming a horse with blood, fluids, autolytic material seeing over my gloves and even in my wellies sometimes.

BTW Lepto organisms are extremely fragile in the environment and when a dog dies the organisms remains viable for a very short period of time in the kidney and urine as do also most viruses in dead animals!

Re: PSS complaint

Bob Russell — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 10:21:29 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Hurray - would the H & S/ pss inspector kindly list the possible zoonotic conditions one will catch from a PM over and above the normal diseases one may be exposed to in daily pursuit of our work[/quote]

I have known two human deaths from leptospirosis (admitedly not caught from PMs, but still a serious zoonoses and relatively easily caught via any small cuts/abrasions on the skin).

[/quote]

This has been shortened to look like it my post it was not!! There are lots of zoonoses that are part of our daily lives. Having said that I do agree the additional risk of picking them up by doing a PM is low.

Re: PSS complaint

bob lehner — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 09:58:54 GMT

[quote user="Richard Fox"]Having contact with many pathologists I have yet to know anyone who has contracted a serious disease from doing a PM, large, small or exotic![/quote]

Indeed - but then pathologists tend to do PMs in a nice clean environment, with plenty of protective clothing and good wash-down facilities.

I think we should at least acknowledge that there is perhaps a difference when a non- pathologist does ' a quick PM to have a look' in the practice/farm/knackers-yard environment where conditions may be very different.

I gave the lepto example as being a very nasty pathogen which is relatively easily caught and one which small animal practitioners may encounter. The two deaths I know of were both the result of contact with wild rats, but I know of a SA practitioner who was convinced she had caught lepto (not fatal luckily) from a pet rat which wee'd on the consulting room table (as rats tend to do).

Re: PSS complaint

Richard Fox — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 22:06:55 GMT

Is this for real? - I am afraid you have a higher risk of contracting a human borne disease than one from a dead animal . Having contact with many pathologists I have yet to know anyone who has contracted a serious disease from doing a PM, large, small or exotic!

Re: PSS complaint

bob lehner — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 21:51:20 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]presumably from livestock/ cattle?[/quote]

No, both rat-borne - and probably the same serotypes as could affect dogs.

Re: PSS complaint

Richard Carter — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 18:28:03 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]two human deaths from leptospirosis [/quote]

presumably from livestock/ cattle? Along with brucella, toxoplasmosis from aborted fetuses, anthrax etc.

The one appropriate for small animal practice would of course be rabies and the other rabies like viruses but hopefully no-one is opening skulls without good reason if any of the symptoms might be rabies.

In other countries where there is a risk, vets and other staff at risk to exposure would usually be vaccinated but being 'rabies free' in UK does leave one exposed to the dog smuggled in from Europe/ Africa.

Re: PSS complaint

bob lehner — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 18:15:04 GMT

I have known two human deaths from leptospirosis (admitedly not caught from PMs, but still a serious zoonoses and relatively easily caught via any small cuts/abrasions on the skin).

Re: PSS complaint

Bob Russell — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:12:57 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]

[quote user="Richard Fox"]never been infected with anything [/quote]

Hurray - would the H & S/ pss inspector kindly list the possible zoonotic conditions one will catch from a PM over and above the normal diseases one may be exposed to in daily pursuit of our work? My risk assessment for PM is about the same risk as doing a dental. Wash afterwards, don't have lunch while doing it.....

[/quote]

Don't forget you will be using a sharp blade and that can be risky!

Re: PSS complaint

Richard Fox — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 11:48:10 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]

[quote user="Richard Fox"]never been infected with anything [/quote]

[/quote]

Exactly!

Re: PSS complaint

Richard Carter — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 10:57:04 GMT

[quote user="Richard Fox"]never been infected with anything [/quote]

Re: PSS complaint

Richard Fox — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 19:34:41 GMT

Hmm - Having done hundreds of PM's - I hve never been infected with anything - cleaning down and isolation while performing it yes but this is no different to a laparotomy and chest surgery - Makes me mad that - Get them to ring me in the future and I will set them straight - who does she think she is!!!! Grrrrr

Re: PSS complaint

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 12 Feb 2011 15:08:42 GMT

Suppose the client requested a post-mortem examination and was prepared to pay a chunk of money for it......... I suspect "head office" would suddenly find a different interpretation of the rules.

Re: PSS complaint

jewel1973 — Sat, 12 Feb 2011 03:04:01 GMT

hmm, we do pm's (not many) at end of day (ops on the living done),on the dental table, has a grid top, and is disinfected after. check practice policy douments, as hn maybe being ott.

Re: PSS complaint

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 22:27:28 GMT

I think the key word the Head Nurse missed was "concurrent". Meaning no PM's at the same time you're spaying. :)

Re: PSS complaint

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 20:30:03 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Chilton"]I'll check if there's a light in there for next time.[/quote]

Inadequate lighting in the freezer room? I'd rat on the company to Elf'n'Safety.

Re: PSS complaint

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 20:22:05 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Told by who[/quote]

Told by whom? surely. I wouldn't normally comment but you were the inventor of pedant's corner.

[/quote]

(Last line of "Some Like It Hot".) I can only plead haste and enthusiasm.

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]wrt the designated pm room, we are PSS approved and have a director who is a PSS inspector and she, like me, thinks that your gestapo nurse is talking through the wrong orifice.[/quote]

Re: PSS complaint

Edward Jones — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 19:33:36 GMT

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]

From PSS manual section

7.6 Are adequate post-mortem facilities or arrangements available?

Adequate post-mortem facilities must be available or other
arrangements made (BP)
Post-mortem examinations on site must be performed in an area not concurrently
used for clinical work. This may be achieved by performing the examination after
clinical work has ceased

[/quote]

That seems fair enough to me and easy to implement in most practises. i.e. it's okay to do a PM in the prep room so long as there's no ops or procedures going on at the time (H&S considerations notwithstanding).

Re: PSS complaint

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 19:25:14 GMT

OK maybe if it was parrot with suspected psittacosis but a cat? I would not be working in a practice where someone told me I couldn't do a PM if I considered it beneficial. The joys of being self employed - and the reason!

Re: PSS complaint

Laurence Webb — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 18:51:42 GMT

From PSS manual section

7.6 Are adequate post-mortem facilities or arrangements available?

Is she more concerned that it may be a bit whiffy? Open it up, then open up all the doors to spread the aroma of pathology around.