Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Bob Russell — Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:57:40 GMT

Virbac vets in France (and the data sheet for the European vaccine range they manufacture themselves) have always recommended 12 week or later finishing but the vaccine marketed in the UK is Nobivac under a Virbac label with an identical data sheet to Intervets.

We will be introducing 8/12wks or 8/10/16wks for those wanting early socialisation with immediate effect.

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Rob Loxley — Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:49:11 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]...which is fine except someone was struck off a few years ago for exactly the same thing. The vet was in the building but did not witness the actual injection of the vaccine IIRC[/quote]

Which case was this? The only one regarding nurse vaccinations that comes to mind was Susie Macleod who was suspended for running a vaccination clinic staffed entirely by VNs which isn't what is suggested here

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:33:00 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

On the subject of vaccine failures at 10 weeks I would be interested to know what brand(s) had failed and what the manufacturers had to say about the problem. The 10 week finish is the bit I keep under particular review but as we have not seen any problems we continue with it. How many vets are finishing later?

[/quote]

As those who have followed my rants over the years know, this is a subject dear to my heart, and one I've struck out my neck on. When I investigated this problem 3 years ago all companies were involved but Intervet and Virbac were most frequent names to come up from information other vets were giving me although my failures were with Fort Dodge vaccines. I had inside information from within the industry (source remains anonymous unless one of the companies wants to take me to court for libel - but suffice to say he worked for a company that still advocates a 12 week finish) that suggested that the manufacturers were well aware that there was a failure rate on 10 week finishes of not just 5% but up to 20%, but they were hiding behind the 'catch all' disclaimer in the data sheets that states a certain number of individuals may fail to respond. This number in anybody's view must be unacceptable however the pressure to compete with other manufacturers with a 10 week finish may allow commercial interests to overcome best practice. One reason manufacturers can get away with such poor efficacy is because they used ELISA testing to prove the efficacy of their vaccines and without going in to all the technical data this is much less reliable than serum neutralisation technique which would show a much greater failure rate which they chose to ignore. Furthermore most were using old strains of CPV virus for testing when the virus has evolved in the field and thus the vaccines may not offer as much protection against these. Also numbers of dogs used in trials were relatively low and very few challenge studies were performed. The fact that I've published this information previously and have been supported by no less an authority than Hal Thompson yet the manufacturers have not taken any action speaks volumes.

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:02:20 GMT

Emma J Bob and Gillian

Julian has said it all. It's not a matter of whether or not I personally trust my nurse. I do,which is why if certificates were produced which stated clearly that either a MRCVS or a RVN were ALLOWED tosign, then I would have no problem-but why ask for trouble by doing something when you know Royal College will disapprove?

Seems senseless to me-and imagine if the nurse was an undercover reporter !

Gery I'm appalled-especially as this was a hospital

Wynne

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 06 Jan 2011 10:08:13 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]I'm guessing it is because it is a seperate POM-V, and therefore shoudl technically only be prescribed after a veterinary clinical exam...........which means I should see every dog every month for Advocate administration.[/quote]

I still don't see it. Is this your protocol, or a CC one? Not trying to argue, it just doesn't make sense to me!

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Julian Earl — Thu, 06 Jan 2011 08:50:57 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

All vaccinations I have ever personally received have been given by a nurse.

If we have qualified VN's what's the issue?

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]However it irritates me that I cannot allow them to give a kennel cough vaccination at the same time[/quote]

I don't understand why Vikki? The animal has been examined, we'd hope that a VN could recognise if the puppy was obviously sick. If they are capable of giving the 2nd vacc why not the KC at the same time?

[quote user="amanda nicholls"]It is a record of vaccination and not a certificate.[/quote]

Quite!

[/quote]

Here we go again!

If it's just a record why do you bother to sign it at all?

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Vikki Halliday LLB — Thu, 06 Jan 2011 00:08:53 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"] don't understand why Vikki? The animal has been examined, we'd hope that a VN could recognise if the puppy was obviously sick. If they are capable of giving the 2nd vacc why not the KC at the same time?[/quote]

I'm guessing it is because it is a seperate POM-V, and therefore shoudl technically only be prescribed after a veterinary clinical exam...........which means I should see every dog every month for Advocate administration.

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 23:13:21 GMT

All vaccinations I have ever personally received have been given by a nurse.

If we have qualified VN's what's the issue?

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]However it irritates me that I cannot allow them to give a kennel cough vaccination at the same time[/quote]

[quote user="amanda nicholls"]It is a record of vaccination and not a certificate.[/quote]

Quite!

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Vikki Halliday LLB — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 22:33:20 GMT

My nurses give 2nd vaccs and write their name, followed by "under veterinary direction". They microchip most of my second vaccs too, although if they are unsure or have a particularly wriggly dog or a squeamish owner they are great at getting me to do it!

However it irritates me that I cannot allow them to give a kennel cough vaccination at the same time, and this is a less technical procedure than a sub cut injection. Therefore I end up doing most of the puppy second vaccs as the owners also want kennel cough done, and it saves time if I do them both.

Anyone care to expand on this? Seems daft to me...........

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

vs0u — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 22:32:17 GMT

Could just put the practice stamp instead of signature of nurse or vet - that way no-one's name is on it. Also a lot less easy for clients to fake! I'm sure there are some who just write on some made up batch numbers at home and make up a signature.

Why would someone get struck off for signing a vacc record for a dog or cat? Unless deliberately falsifying it repeatedly. I can't see why the RCVS would care who actually gave the vaccine as long as it was given. Or who signed the card. As long as they know it was given, obviously.

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Amanda Nicholls — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 21:54:41 GMT

[quote user="emma_j"]

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] I wouldn't let my nurse give a second vaccination, not until the manufacturers print certificates in which the person signing has to state whether MRCVS or RVN. [/quote]

In our hospital nurses routinely give second vaccinations, I happily sign vaccination cards when the nurses have given vaccines. Under the priniciples of certification, I can certify matters which are 'within my knowledge or can be ascertained by me personally' and I am happy that this is the case when RVNs I work alongside are adminstering vaccines to animals under our care, previously prescribed by the MRCVS who saw the animal for the first vaccine, and recording it as such on our computer records.

[/quote]

My RVNs also give 2nd vaccines but I was 'advised' by RCVS not to sign the record card and that the RVN should not sign the record card, we get them to write their name rather than sign. It is a record of vaccination and not a certificate.

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Julian Earl — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 21:34:03 GMT

[quote user="emma_j"]

[/quote]

...which is fine except someone was struck off a few years ago for exactly the same thing. The vet was in the building but did not witness the actual injection of the vaccine IIRC.

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:49:11 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

[quote user="emma_j"]

[/quote]

I have to say that I don't have a problem with VN's giving second vaccines and it happens on occasions here if we are extremely busy (or I am talking too much) but we do microchips at 2nd vacc and I take the opportunity to check that the owners are up to speed on spaying, worming etc. I know nurses can do the same but they are reluctant to chip puppies because it can be uncomfortable!

[/quote]

ditto to Emma - I trust my nurses too.

My nurses are also happy to insert microchips in almost anything. We routinely do parrots, tortoises etc so they are used to small and wriggly!!!

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Bob Russell — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:40:55 GMT

[quote user="emma_j"]

[/quote]

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

emma_j — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:30:40 GMT

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Gerry Henry — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:14:47 GMT

I worked in a veterinary hospital in **** Yorkshire for a few months. They took the vaccines out of the fridge first thing in the morning and left them out all day; in June the indoor temperature must have reached 30degs. Used to see parvo on a weekly if not daily basis. I wonder why?

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Bob Russell — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:03:01 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]On the subject of vaccine failures at 10 weeks I would be interested to know what brand(s) had failed and what the manufacturers had to say about the problem. The 10 week finish is the bit I keep under particular review but as we have not seen any problems we continue with it. How many vets are finishing later?[/quote]

We use nobivac, and had a few pups go down with parvo at around 5-7 months old after a 10 week finish (including my own!) We had extensive discussions with intervet at the time, and they told me that around 5% of pups vaccinated at 10 weeks will still have circulating MDA, and that they accept this as a reasonable number. We disagreed and have subsequently changed to 12 weeks, or if people want to do 10 weeks we give an extra parvo vaccine at 16 weeks.

[/quote]

Thanks - we use the Virbac badged version of the same vaccine so I will have a rethink. I already get owners of the 'black and tan' breeds to come back at 16-18 weeks for the Parvo C vaccine to be administered. The 8/10/16 weeks or 8/12 week options make good sense as options.

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Rob Davis — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 15:38:29 GMT

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 04 Jan 2011 16:39:20 GMT

Bob If you had administered that vaccine, or the owner had done so, and the puppy had succumbed,then quite frankly, I thinkthe public would rightly be appalled.Why do veterinary surgeons behave so stupidly?

Wynne

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 04 Jan 2011 16:37:04 GMT

I agree with you Bob Those of us who have seen Parvo will never be complacent (or distemper for that matter ) It seems to me that a lot of the initial agitation to reduce vaccination intervals came from academics-and how often would anuone refer distemper or parvo ?

Gillian I wouldn't let my nurse give a second vaccination, not until the manufacturers print certificates in which the person signing has to state whether MRCVS or RVN. I would then because there would be no ambiguity Until then the public think of it as a veterinary certificate, so I treat it as seriously as possible within the constarint that positive identification cannot be possible untilmicrochipping becomes compulsory

Wynne

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Bob Russell — Tue, 04 Jan 2011 11:51:36 GMT

A puppy was brought in this morning for second vaccination. The owner brought the vaccine with her for me to give! On this occasion the vaccine was a legit vet supplied one but nobody thought to point out that the vaccine needed to be kept in the fridge!

Transported 200 miles in a heated car then 2 days on the hall table. I did the vaccination using our vaccine stock needless to say!

It amazes me the casual manner that some vets seem to treat vaccination.

As the same generation of vet (also same college and year!) as Bob Partridge we have both seen the damage these diseases can do (especially Parvo which appeared when we were training). I wonder if some of the younger vets are becoming complacent as these conditions become less common.

Vaccination is the life blood of the profession and I make no apologies for that. It protects our patients from killer diseases. Even if I could guarantee all my patients would come in for an annual health I would not change my vaccination regimen.

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 03 Jan 2011 11:04:33 GMT

[quote user="Bob Partridge"]However - if you condone the illegal import & use of vaccines by non-MRCVS[/quote]

I don't think anyone has or ever would condone this.

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Bob Partridge — Sun, 02 Jan 2011 18:35:39 GMT

Your best port of call is with the VMD.

If the drugs are illegal imports then the breeder has committed an offence.

On a different tack - if the vaccines were given by a vet - then you have a reasonable assurrance that they will have been correctly stored and administered. Are you confident of the effectiveness of the vaccine given by the breeder? Confident enough for the new owner to feel happy that their new (much loved) puppy is actually protected ?

Personally I'd approach the puppy as "unvaccinated" & explain to client why - On the "obligation" to report - no more than an "obligation" if you witness someone shoplifting to bring it to the attention of the shop. However - if you condone the illegal import & use of vaccines by non-MRCVSs - then don't expect to hav e a job in a few years!

All the best

Bob

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 31 Dec 2010 18:24:14 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Perhaps you'd like to meet the owners of puppies I've had die from parvovirus when they were given TWO vaccines with the second at 10 weeks (not vaccinated by me I hasten to add, I refuse to do a 10 week finish even if data sheets say its OK and insist on a 12 week finish.[/quote]

Yes we complete all at 12 weeks. If they have had an earlier 1st vacc then we ignore it [before 8 weeks].

Re: Breeders vaccinating puppies themselves?

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 31 Dec 2010 18:22:57 GMT

Because they are perfectly able to carry out the same procedures as mefor a 2nd vacc - and have a lot more time to discuss all the things that should be discussed with new owners.

Obviously if any issues are picked up, or werre picked up at 1st vacc, they see a vet.