Spaniel rage syndrome

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Mark Holmes — Mon, 20 Dec 2010 15:32:23 GMT

[quote user="warwickshire vet"]

I have certainly found that changing from a high protien diet to a high carbohydrate/high fibre and rich in soya improves aggression/hyperactivity in some dogs. This is based on research done on humans where a diet rich in L-tryptophan reduces hyperactivity in kids, as it is often deficient in many junk food diets. It is thought to be one of the tools used in cults to make people feel they are having a 'religious feeling' after attending a weekend retreat - in fact their brain is awash with serotonin giving them a feeling of calm... The theory behind it is a high carb meal causes release of insulin, which increases absorption of L-tryptophan from the gut, which is converted to serotonin in the brain. Soya is a great source of L-tyrptophan so addiing it to the diet helps boost the setrotonin too.(Perhaps explaining why veggies are so chilled out?) You can by pass the soya by using an L-tryptophan supplement, such as 'Kalmaid' - sorry its not much help with the cocker rage.. One of the lecturers at Southampton university suggested it may be triggered by touching the dog on the flank inadvertantly or unintentionally. But I usually have ended up euthanasing 'cocker rages' with or without behavioural referral.

[/quote]

I have just spoken to Hills about protein and behaviour, they have several references which show NO link between protein and behaviour, the amino acid L tryptophan is the only one with some effect, being sedating in high quantities (ie HIGH protein diets) but the effect was unlikely to be significant in a clinical setting.

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Richard Carter — Fri, 10 Dec 2010 18:36:08 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]stroking a dog or cat gently can have a calming effect [/quote] Don't tell us how to do it yet - you have to patent it first then get some PR fellow to let it loose on the unsuspecting public, write a book, do a film or series and then retire...

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Bob Russell — Fri, 10 Dec 2010 12:56:29 GMT

I agree with Alex. How many of us have found that stroking a dog or cat gently can have a calming effect (and increase in well-being) for both 'stroker' and stroked?

Is this a technique or just one of the reasons we keep pets?

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Alex Gough — Fri, 10 Dec 2010 11:57:59 GMT

Wasn't sure what to make of that article. It was quite wishy washy, they didn't seem to be claiming much for Ttouch, which is reasonable, but it makes you wonder what the point of the article was at all. The conclusion I came to was that probably if you stroke a dog it calms down. I found this out without being told it by an ancient tree.

Alex

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Niall Taylor — Thu, 09 Dec 2010 11:47:18 GMT

Article on TT in this month's BSAVA 'Companion' magazine (p4). Haven't had a chance to read it myself yet, just a heads up.

http://www.bsava.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=iqYaKP3TsrA%3d&tabid=202&mid=3014

Niall

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Simon Neuhoff — Wed, 08 Dec 2010 14:54:24 GMT

[quote user="warwickshire vet"]

I have certainly found that changing from a high protien diet to a high carbohydrate/high fibre and rich in soya improves aggression/hyperactivity in some dogs.

[/quote]

HIGH CARBS!!!! Infidel! Where does this leave the Raw Meaty Bones Are Best lot then?

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Alex Allen — Wed, 08 Dec 2010 14:29:33 GMT

[quote user="alex gough"]

Do you think I could induce that same religious feeling in the audience when I give a talk, by feeding them crisps fried in soya oil and all bran? (Makes a mental note to email the caterers for our next CPD event)

Alex

[/quote]

- why do you think us drug companies bring carb filled donuts and chocolate to all of our lunch and learns!!!

It's amazing what bacon butties can do to the mood of a room when the meeting is very early.

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

warwickshire vet — Wed, 08 Dec 2010 14:25:56 GMT

Probably better results with tofu and pasta...

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Alex Gough — Wed, 08 Dec 2010 14:19:48 GMT

Alex

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

warwickshire vet — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 21:13:10 GMT

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Richard Fox — Sat, 04 Dec 2010 10:01:08 GMT

High protein meals are known to release tyrosine which is a precursor of neurotransmitters like Dopamine which is a stimulating neurotransmitter unlike serotonin. I wonder whether this would have an adverse affect in some individuals?

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Mark Holmes — Sat, 04 Dec 2010 07:39:14 GMT

On the subject of behaviour has anyone seen anything to support what some people (trainers) advise about feeding a lower protein diet? I have always wondered how you feed excess protein to a dog being a carnivore. Since there is no " behaviour" diet offered by the likes of Hills I have generally assumed that there is little evidence to suggest it makes a difference as they have segmented to food market every other way

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Louise Cole — Fri, 03 Dec 2010 21:35:47 GMT

Bristol and Edinburgh Uni.s have good behav departments so would be worth checking to see what courses they run, and check CABTSG too.

Lou

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Alex Gough — Fri, 03 Dec 2010 21:16:45 GMT

It sounds like there was a presumption that this was a psychomotor/temporal lobe/complex partial seizure (take your pick on terminology), but on VIN they refer to this as a myth. The only way to document that this is genuinely epileptic activity is to have an EEG in place at the time of the event, which for obvious reasons I suspect has unlikely to have happened. In humans they have epilepsy labs where they strap them to an EEG for 48 hours or longer and see if abnormal behaviour is due to epilepsy. I would tend to reach for levetiracetam (Keppra) for therapeutic trials for suspected partial seizures - it possibly has better activity than pb/kbr, it starts working quicker and you can stop it abruptly if it doesn't work.

I hear they discontinued the Southampton uni course in behaviour which is a shame - it seemed like a good course and one of our vets wanted to do it. Anyone know of anything similar being run?

alex

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Louise Cole — Fri, 03 Dec 2010 21:00:16 GMT

Hi, Alex,

I don't have a great reference, only my notes from the post grad course in behaviour at Southampton Uni (from July 2006), but I've handwritten a ref for Reisner, I (1991) Pathophysiological Basis of Behaviour Problems. Vet Clinics of North Am S.A.Practice, 21:2, 207-224 on the top of the relevant handout, so hopefully this will have more info. It's also known as temporal lobe / limbic / psychomotor / behavioural epilepsy if that's any further help. I certainly believe it's an extremely rare condition, with a missed behav problem more likely for most cases. A true limbic epilepsy cause of aggression is likely to respond to phenobarb/KBr, which purely behav aggression is unlikely to do.

Hi Richard,

Your G Ret sounds interesting, I'd want to be v sure that a trigger for the behav isn't being missed, as I think a pure behav problem is most likely (truly unpredictable aggression is fortunately v rare). Hoepfully you've referred to someone who is a recognised behaviourist who will consider medical issues also! If there is a suspicion of dietary involvement, you could try a diet trial, but be prepared that the behaviour could get worse if the original theory about the G Ret.s was true and you stumble across an even worse diet for triggering the aggression. However, I haven't come across any evidence for G Ret food aggression / intolerance since I've been taking behavioural medicine more seriously (I suppose I haven't had the need to look either tho!).

Hope that helps,

Lou

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Alex Gough — Fri, 03 Dec 2010 14:49:12 GMT

[quote user="Louise Cole"]

My understanding is that true 'rage syndome' is temporal lobe epilepsy, and therefore often responds to anti-epileptic meds (if you can treat and still keep the owners safe!). Quite how this would respond to T Touch escapes me. I took on a Cocker Spaniel who supposedly became aggressive and bit without warning - she is nervous, and warns subtly - her previous owners didn't notice when she became stressed and warned, and so for them, the attacks were sudden and unpredictable - ie 'rage syndrome'. I have had no problems with her behaviour in the last 4 years, and she is def not epileptic!! [/quote]

Hi Louise thanks for the input. Do you have any references. I've searched pubmed and my numerous neurology textbooks and can find very little. Searching VIN, there are opinions there from neurologists and behaviourists that there is no such thing as Spaniel or Springer Rage syndrome and it is a purely behavioural problem.

Alex

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Richard Carter — Fri, 03 Dec 2010 14:47:57 GMT

This golden retriever comment about diet is interesting - just referred a 2 yr NM for really unpredictable aggressive behaviour around feeding which was identified as being possessive over the food bowl. Any more info?? I think he is on JWB dry.

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Niall Taylor — Fri, 03 Dec 2010 13:52:41 GMT

[quote user="Louise Cole"]One of the forms of aggression assoc with feeding protein was thought to be in certain lines of Golden Retriever[/quote]

Yes, yes, that's it, Golden Retrievers, it's all coming back to me now. Welcome to the forums Louise!

Niall

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Louise Cole — Fri, 03 Dec 2010 13:44:21 GMT

One of the forms of aggression assoc with feeding protein was thought to be in certain lines of Golden Retriever, and I think was felt to be some sort of dietary intolerance - adjusting the diet could either stop the aggression, or make it worse depending on whether you inadvertantly selected the 'wrong' protein source. Have not heard anything about this condition, for years, so suspect it has been disproved / fallen out of favour?

Sorry if this doesn't post correctly - haven't tried before...

Lou

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Niall Taylor — Fri, 03 Dec 2010 12:57:25 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]As a signed up member of the VOCS (veterinary old codgers society)[/quote]

Where do I sign?..

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I seem to recall rage syndrome being related to the production of dry dog foods and something happening to the protein in the processing that triggered rage syndrome[/quote]

That's interesting, I know from a talk by Roger Mugford years ago that he felt that high protein meals could trigger an aggressive turn - probably nothing in it though.

NB - You realise if this turns into a RMB thread it will get consigned to the naughty corner

Niall

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Richard Fox — Fri, 03 Dec 2010 12:52:59 GMT

As a member of the POOTOS (Pathologists out-of-touch procrastination society) I have never seen any literature to suggest this ;)

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 03 Dec 2010 12:40:19 GMT

As a signed up member of the VOCS (veterinary old codgers society) I seem to recall rage syndrome being related to the production of dry dog foods and something happening to the protein in the processing that triggered rage syndrome. That theory seemed to die a death but was it valid?

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Richard Fox — Fri, 03 Dec 2010 12:35:19 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

I hadn't heard of Tellington Touch until a few years ago when a client of mine told me it had worked wonders for her dog which had a sprain which resolved after only a few weeks of TT treatment; whereas normally one would expect a sprain to take a few weeks to resolve of course.

[/quote]

LOL

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Virginia Campbell — Fri, 03 Dec 2010 12:23:03 GMT

[quote user="Paul Grant"] whether TTouch could be of benefit for a dog with Spaniel Rage Syndrome [/quote]

I wouldn't TTouch a dog with Rage Syndrome with a barge pole. Maybe with a rabies pole. I find a syringeful of Euthatal of benefit in these cases.

Sorry to be flippant but I see no point at all in doing anything other than euthanasing these dogs. Doesn't matter if it's behavioural or a form of seizure activity - the end result is the same. It's interesting to know about the investigations into genetic links though, if we can stop dogs like this being born it can only be a good thing.

Re: Spaniel rage syndrome

Niall Taylor — Fri, 03 Dec 2010 11:14:31 GMT

Not much use in treatment I'm afraid but this fairly small study gives an insight into genetic causes of canine aggression:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1746-6148/6/34

Background
Canine behavioural problems, in particular aggression, are important reasons for euthanasia of otherwise healthy dogs. Aggressive behaviour in dogs also represents an animal welfare problem and a public threat. Elucidating the genetic background of adverse behaviour can provide valuable information to breeding programs and aid the development of drugs aimed at treating undesirable behaviour. With the intentions of identifying gene-specific expression in particular brain parts and comparing brains of aggressive and non-aggressive dogs, we studied amygdala, frontal cortex, hypothalamus and parietal cortex, as these tissues are reported to be involved in emotional reactions, including aggression. Based on quantitative real-time PCR (qRT-PCR) in 20 brains, obtained from 11 dogs euthanised because of aggressive behaviour and nine non-aggressive dogs, we studied expression of nine genes identified in an initial screening by subtraction hybridisation.

Results
This study describes differential expression of the UBE2V2 and ZNF227 genes in brains of aggressive and non-aggressive dogs. It also reports differential expression for eight of the studied genes across four different brain tissues (amygdala, frontal cortex, hypothalamus, and parietal cortex). Sex differences in transcription levels were detected for five of the nine studied genes.

Conclusions
The study showed significant differences in gene expression between brain compartments for most of the investigated genes. Increased expression of two genes was associated with the aggression phenotype. Although the UBE2V2 and ZNF227 genes have no known function in regulation of aggressive behaviour, this study contributes to preliminary data of differential gene expression in the canine brain and provides new information to be further explored.

Niall