Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

Heather Toft — Mon, 29 Nov 2010 22:42:43 GMT

What do the VDS have to say? We have a rather overzealous set of trading standards officers locally (for example: http://www.farmersguardian.com/home/business/business-news/farmer-defeats-trading-standards-in-court-battle/35154.article )and I seem to be forever to writing reports for them. I've taken to covering my own ass and consulting the VDS on absolutely everything and writing clinical notes that would rival war and peace. Good luck, I wouldn't envy your task, I'm hopeless at ageing puppies & kittens,

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 29 Nov 2010 22:15:49 GMT

I'd like to say thanks as well; nice to know that my opinions aren't lonely ones. :)

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

bob lehner — Mon, 29 Nov 2010 18:44:58 GMT

Many thanks to all of you who have taken the trouble to respond with such valuable advice and information - all good stuff and I do appreciate it.

These discussions are a really great way of getting advice/opinions/ picking brains.

I will proceed with some care...!

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

Anonymous — Mon, 29 Nov 2010 17:32:30 GMT

Dug around in practice library for conflicting opinions on when to move a pup from litter to new home. Found this expert opinion which is in stark contrast to the one I posted earlier:

Extract from p.99 of 'Small Animal Pediatrics' (2011) eds Peterson and Kutzler [emphasis mine again]:

"Although weaning may occur from 4 to 6 weeks of age, a puppy should never be adopted before 7.5 to 8 weeks of age and best not before 10 weeks of age. Although this has not been studied well in dogs, clinical observations indicate that the interaction occurring within the litter at that time and the effect of the mother are too critical to a puppy's development, and early removal from the litter may result in emotional instability."

Andrew U. Luescher, Dr. med. vet., PhD, DACVB, ECVBM-CA

Director, Animal Behaviour Clinic, Associate Professor, Purdue University, Indiana.

Not sure I prefer it and I do note that it's unreferenced with just a list of 5 books of suggested reading at the end of the chapter, with the most relevant and authorative (in my opinion) being Lindsay's book quoted earlier in thread. Does show though that 'expert' opinion divided in pretty dogmatic fashion with little by means of objective evidence it would appear...

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 29 Nov 2010 17:32:02 GMT

[quote user="sophia guymer"][quote user="bob lehner"]pet shop next week with Trading Standards as they have had complaints that the shop is selling puppies and kittens too young.[/quote][/quote]

Of course by next week they will be one week older............

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

Anonymous — Mon, 29 Nov 2010 16:21:42 GMT

[quote user="Peter Ding"]

Sounds like the answer is fairly clear.

less than 6 weeks = too young

6-8 weeks = grey area, opinions differ, older is better, but a court might not agree depending on circumstance.

.8 weeks plus = ok.

[/quote]

I'm not sure I agree totally based on what I've read so far - what about:

less than 6 weeks = too young

6-8 weeks = ideal

8 weeks plus = older than ideal

(>12wks = neglectful breeding, leaving puppies too old before re-homing, arguably as much a crime as weaning at 5 weeks if that's considered a crime)

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

Peter Ding — Mon, 29 Nov 2010 15:43:13 GMT

Sounds like the answer is fairly clear.

less than 6 weeks = too young

6-8 weeks = grey area, opinions differ, older is better, but a court might not agree depending on circumstance.

.8 weeks plus = ok.

The real problem may well be proving a litter of pups is 5 weeks old rather than 7 and whether an offence has been committed if the bitch had lost a lot of condition and had "rejected/weaned" a large litter herself.

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 29 Nov 2010 14:31:36 GMT

Bob If you're close to the M4/M5 or any of the Irish ferries, look very closely into provenance

Wynne

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

sophia guymer — Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:23:09 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]pet shop next week with Trading Standards as they have had complaints that the shop is selling puppies and kittens too young.[/quote]

Apparently I am the only one surprised and shocked by the fact that petshops are still selling puppies and kittens in the first place, never mind what age they are!!!!!?????

I am dutch myself and if I am not very much mistaken it is no longer alowed to sell dogs and cats in petshops overthere, in fact, I was under the impression that was the case here as well! I would very strongly advice anybody against buying from a petshop. That could be a behavioural problem waiting to develop.

The poor little sods!

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 23:59:11 GMT

[quote user="David Beattie"]Maybe one of the vet dentists on here would be able to say how reliable ageing pups by teeth actually is?[/quote]

Hollow laugh.

Well, really, if they have a full set of deciduous teeth, I doubt they could be under 6 weeks.

Certain breeds may have delayed eruption and a clever dodgy breeder might use that to wriggle out.

As Cat has suggested, there's possibly a lot more involved here than just the precise age of the pups.

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

Anonymous — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 23:10:06 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

I rather suspect the ages will be indeterminate and Trading Standards will be expecting me to 'guess the age. ' Hmmm - perhaps I should have declined the job...?

[/quote]

Don't know how accurate, but Table 19 in the Clinical Appendix of Blood and Studdert's 'Saunders Comprehensive Veterinary Dictionary', 2nd ed (1999) gives dental eruption times in the dog as follows:

Deciduous incisors: 4-6 weeks

Deciduous canines: 3-5 weeks

Decduous premolars: 5-6 weeks

You could extrapolate that the majority of the pups should have a full deciduous set of 6 upper and lower incisors, 2 upper and lower canines and 6 upper and lower premolars, if they were at least 6 weeks old?

Maybe one of the vet dentists on here would be able to say how reliable ageing pups by teeth actually is?

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

Anonymous — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 22:58:00 GMT

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"]

Puppies should stay with the litter and the bitch until they are 8 weeks old. There is plenty of evidence that this is much better for their social and behavioural development.

[/quote]

Is there actually plenty of evidence (if so I'd like to see some as I suspect there is little objective evidence for any firmly held position)? I tend to recommend 7 weeks (in the unlikely event that someone asked my opinion on the matter) based on what I read in S.R. Lindsay's 'Handbook of Applied Dog Behaviour and Training: Volume One Adaptation and Learning' (2000), p.47 [any emphasis mine]:

"For most purposes, secondary socialization begins in earnest when a puppy leaves the mother and littermates to begin life with the human family. The ideal timing for this transition is 7 weeks of age, wth a relative range of -1 to +1 (6 to 8 weeks). The 7-week marker is a long-standing convention among insightful breeders and trainers, but it is also supported by various empirical observations (Freedman et al., 1961). Firstly this period is associated with increasing irritability on the mother's part towards her young, coinciding with the decline of lactation and a growing disinterest in nursing. This disinterest is not shared by her puppies, whose appetites are as sharp as ther teeth. Not surprisingly, maternal punishing activity peaks at around this time (Rheingold, 1963; Wilson 1984/1985). The mother's job is done both nutritionally and psychologically, making 7 to 8 weeks of age a very sensible time for final weaning and the finding of a new home for her brood. Secondly, wthn the litter itself, agonistic interaction between the puppies has reached a peak, and although their aggressive play is not intended to hurt, the skills and attitudes developed by such incessant competitiveness does not beneficially serve puppies in terms of ther future adaptation to family life.

"In addition to the foregoing observations, experimental study of the social development of puppies reveals that several motivational parameters associated with bonding and socialization peak at around this time (Scott and Fuller, 1965). For instance, distress vocalization and reactive behaviour exhibited durng brief isolation from littermates reaches its highest levels at around 7 weeks of age but undergoes a rapid decline through week 10. Also peaking at this time is a puppy's willingness to approach strangers confidently and to investigate novel thngs with vigorous tail wagging. However, the strongest support for encouraging adoption during week 7 stems from the progressive potentiation of fearfulness and the simultaneous attenuation of social approach tendencies occurring at this time. This pattern of increasing fear and social avoidance forms a trajectory that culminates wth this close of the socialization period sometme after week 12. These two opposing social dimensions (fear and attraction) optimally intersect during week 7 [Figure from Scott and Fuller, 1965]. The balanced interplay of attraction and fear is fundamental to bonding and socialization in the broadest sense.

"From what has been discussed, puppies appear to be developmentally prepared to experience the most efficient secondary socialization during a short period around 7 weeks of age. However, this does not suggest that puppies younger or older than 7 weeks are unft or unable to benefit from socialization. The critical or sensitive period hypothesis of socialization stresses that a short period of time, or window of opportunity, exists during which optimal socialization effects can be fully realized. It does not, however, state or imply that socialization occurring outside these developmental boundaries is not beneficial.

"A reasonable objection against delaying [emphasis mine] seconday socialization until around week 7 might be based on arguments favouring an earlier starting point for socialization. Five-week-old puppies are more outgoing and less fearful of social contact than are 7-week-old puppies. It would appear to make sense, therefore, to initiate secondary socialization at an earlier stage in the socialization process rather than waiting. Certainly, it is a period when conscientious breeders should be providing daily and careful handling consistent with a puppy's future placement. However, there are many benefits accruing from keeping the litter intact until week 7. These factors have already been discussed in detail [previous section], but to reiterate: puppies removed from the litter too early are at risk of developing adjustment problems of one sort or another as adult dogs. Adoption is a matter of timing. Both the extreme of adopting too early (before week 6) or too late (after week 12, wth the emergence of increasing social avoidance) may compete with appropriate socialization or predispose puppies to develop social adjustment problems."

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

Vikki Halliday LLB — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 21:57:02 GMT

Might one suggest that you have been passed that old chestnut, a poisoned chalice?

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

Cat Henstridge — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 21:23:31 GMT

Puppies should stay with the litter and the bitch until they are 8 weeks old. There is plenty of evidence that this is much better for their social and behavioural development.

My concern would be that if the pet shop is selling the pups too young, then when are they leaving the litter to get to the shop? Also, where were they originally bred? Many pet shops have puppy farm type stock so they are guarenteed a regular supply.

I think you should be asking a lot more questions than just about the pups age.

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

bob lehner — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 21:09:08 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

How young are they selling them? If it's less than 6 weeks then not good, but if more than that can't see there's much that can be done.

[/quote]

I rather suspect the ages will be indeterminate and Trading Standards will be expecting me to 'guess the age. ' Hmmm - perhaps I should have declined the job...?

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

Victoria Gibson — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:28:04 GMT

In my practice we vaccinate breeders pups from 6 weeks. It is a policy I don't really agree with as the breeders then sell them straight after that 1st vacc and we essentially encourage selling them at too young an age.

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 19:40:09 GMT

How young are they selling them? If it's less than 6 weeks then not good, but if more than that can't see there's much that can be done.

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

Rob Loxley — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 19:00:01 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"] Looks like there maybe no real answer in law.[/quote]

Hence why you're being dragged along...

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

bob lehner — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 18:01:43 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="bob lehner"]I would be interested to know what people feel is the minimum age pups and kittens should be offered for sale. [/quote]

Interestingly, the Pet Animals Act (that covers pet shops) says 'that animals, being mammals, will not be sold at too early an age'

Whereas the Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act covering Breeding Establishments says 'the keeper of a licensed breeding establishment is guilty of an offence if... ...he sells a dog which is less than eight weeks old otherwise than to the keeper of a licensed pet shop or a licensed Scottish rearing establishment'

So the law appears unclear on a defined age that dogs can be sold to the public by pet shops (unless also breeding establishments) but not by breeders directly, unless I've missed something.

[/quote]

Thanks for that and all other comments . Yes - I have picked up on the Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act and Pet Animals Act (1951).

Have spent the afternoon researching the whole issue on t'internet, not wishing to appear an ignoramus when talking to the shop keeper - who might be well-versed in the legislation. Have found that 'The Pet Animals Act (1951) ' also says licensed pet shops must not sell a mammal 'if unweaned, or if weaned, at an age at which it should not have been weaned'. This begs the question as to what is the correct age to wean. Most of the web-sites I have looked at (eg. Kennel Club, RSPCA, Dogs' Trust , Pet Health Council etc) say pups should stay with their mothers until 8 weeks - tho' they can clearly be nutritionally independent of the mother by 6 weeks. Most agree that socialisation and general health will be better if they stay with the mother and siblings until 8 weeks.

Looks like there maybe no real answer in law. Interestingly there seems to be a lot of legislation in the USA banning sale of pups under 8 weeks.

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

Rob Loxley — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 16:52:26 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]I would be interested to know what people feel is the minimum age pups and kittens should be offered for sale. [/quote]

Interestingly, the Pet Animals Act (that covers pet shops) says 'that animals, being mammals, will not be sold at too early an age'

So the law appears unclear on a defined age that dogs can be sold to the public by pet shops (unless also breeding establishments) but not by breeders directly, unless I've missed something.

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

Vikki Halliday LLB — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 16:18:28 GMT

From my experience breeding with my bitch, (Labrador Retriever), the pups were ravenous for food at 4 weeks, and the bitch was pushing them away by 6 weeks, so I found they were effectively weaned by then. I did keep the pups until at least 8 weeks however, because I think there is a lot to be said for the early socialisation that remaining with the litter siblings brings.

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

Mark Hedberg — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:38:32 GMT

I'm not a fan of early weaning. I know many puppies and kittens that have a bit of juvenile food in addition to the milk before they're totally weaned. I'm a firm believer that nursing until at least 8 weeks is beneficial to the pet's health.

Disclaimer: the following is not evidence based medicine. The following is based SOLELY on my personal views and is totally anecdotal (to my knowledge).

I believe it's very important to have time with the mother. I believe that taking puppies or kittens from their mother before 8 weeks may contribute to behavioral issues in later life.

(end of disclaimer bit.)

That said, 6 week old weaning has been done many times; while i'm not a fan, I also can't say it's out-and-out negligence or animal abuse or anything like that. I just think breeding and weaning shouldn't be rushed.

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

Alan Tevendale — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:17:42 GMT

I've certainly always recommeded 8 weeks to anyone who asks me what age they should be sold at (not that many breeders seem to take notice) but I do see a fair number of 6 week old pups coming into the surgery for a check over having just been taken on. Never seems to cause them any problems. I think if the breeder/pet shop is being responsible and sensible then 6 weeks might be ok presuming they are giving the correct advice and such. If they are selling under 6 weeks then I would definately say too young, anything older might be hard to argue.

Re: Minimum age to sell puppies/kittens

Marie Kubiak — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:12:07 GMT

As far as I am aware the only legal requirement is that they are independent. i.e. weaned. Beyond that, as long as they are not suffering as a result of being sold on at that age I'm not sure if there is anything you can do.