Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Catherine Williams — Wed, 10 Nov 2010 10:13:10 GMT

[quote user="i am ed"]

Thanks. For some reason I had it in my head that penicillins/etc where more of a no-no if given orally (thinking along the same lines as how you don't give oral antibiotics to ruminant cattle). Then it slowly filtered into my little head that rabbits are actually hindgut fermenters, and that as far as the hindgut is concerned oral administration is equivalent to parenteral...

What about antirobe/clindamycin? Again, I've heard that oral administration of this is contraindicated (and should be avoided with abscesses around the oral cavity for this reason). Any opinions on this?

[/quote]

I went to the rabbit lecture at London Vet Show. Fairly sure he said oral penicillins will kill a significant percentage of rabbits (can't remember how many) within 48hr due to the impact on the gut. He did use penicillins but always injectable version

He definitely said clindamycin would kill rabbits within 24hr if it went systemically at all so he really didn't recommend the antirobe stuffed abscess. Not used it myself for several years as it never made much difference in the ones I used it in, just made a messy job even more unpleasant trying to stuff in it there.

No experience of convenia and it wasn't mentioned in the lecture

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 09 Nov 2010 09:20:41 GMT

[quote user="Alan Tevendale"]

I remember the same thing Rob, must have been from college. Certainly never had much luck with packing abscesses. Definately going to try a few cases on convenia now though.

[/quote]

I tried the antirobe capsule in abscess routine and got 100% mortality on 2 cases. I've since made up my own recipe antibiotic impregnated beads (as previously posted) made with car body filler and Augmentin powder, there was very little science involved just chucked a bit in and mixed it up. I never tested them on an in- vitro culture plate as you're supposed to but they seemed to work well in the couple of cases I used them on. But Convenia is so much more erm...convenient (and effective).

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Alan Tevendale — Mon, 08 Nov 2010 21:10:26 GMT

I remember the same thing Rob, must have been from college. Certainly never had much luck with packing abscesses. Definately going to try a few cases on convenia now though.

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Rob Reid — Mon, 08 Nov 2010 19:22:22 GMT

[quote user="i am ed"]What about antirobe/clindamycin? Again, I've heard that oral administration of this is contraindicated (and should be avoided with abscesses around the oral cavity for this reason). Any opinions on this?[/quote]

No experience with these I am afraid. I think there was a fashion a few years ago of packing the antirobe powder into abscesses but I seem to recall someone saying somewhere (may even have been at College) that this is pretty ineffective.

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Edward Jones — Mon, 08 Nov 2010 17:02:38 GMT

[quote user="Rob Reid"]

[quote user="i am ed"]Oral ceporex - Is that safe?[/quote]

I have used it in several cases over...

[/quote]

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Rob Reid — Fri, 05 Nov 2010 20:58:36 GMT

[quote user="Charlotte Marshall"]What form of engemycin are people using now? I used to use 5% but it is now off the market. I was worried about using the 10% in case it caused reactions as I know engemycin s/c can do in cats. Are people using the 10% because if so I will start using it again as I had some really good results with it.[/quote]

Yeah we use the 10%, no issues so far.

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Mike Priest — Fri, 05 Nov 2010 20:04:21 GMT

One client had 3 bucks that fought with numerous superficial wound tending to abscesses - 2 responded fine to Enrofloxacin and cleaning - 3rd was static - gave single shot of Convenia at dog dose & cleared a treat - owner used probiotics alongside - single case but am awaiting next chance to use this but agree with advice on consent form being used.

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Charlotte Marshall — Fri, 05 Nov 2010 18:36:34 GMT

What form of engemycin are people using now? I used to use 5% but it is now off the market. I was worried about using the 10% in case it caused reactions as I know engemycin s/c can do in cats. Are people using the 10% because if so I will start using it again as I had some really good results with it.

I have also only used procain penicillin rather than synulox usually if I suspect syphilis but not for much else. I tend to try and surgically remove abcesses if not attached to the jaw. I had understood that draining rabbit abcesses was not really recommended any more am I wrong?

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

vs0u — Fri, 05 Nov 2010 17:40:25 GMT

I have used Convenia at the dog/cat dose in a couple of bad dental abscesses where I thought the rabbits would have to be euthanased and had miracle cures. This was along with surgical drainage.

Have also used duphamox in the past - owners can give the injections at home every 3 days and seems to work well for keeping abscesses under control.

Oral Septrin is another one.

In my experience Baytril doesn't work as well as any of those. I would be inclined to try either duph or septrin first and save convenia for bad cases. I don't think we should be using enrofloxacin or ceftiofur indiscriminately as they should be saved for more resistant or refractory cases.

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Rob Reid — Fri, 05 Nov 2010 10:18:03 GMT

[quote user="i am ed"]Oral ceporex - Is that safe?[/quote]

I have used it in several cases over the last few years and have had no problems. I use 20mg/kg BID which off the top of my head I think works out as 1ml/5kg. I think you can use injectable as well at the same dose rate s/c, but we don't keep it in at our practice In theory it should be no worse than giving penicillin, but then I have never had a problem with a rabbit I have given that to either. Still get the owners to sign and off-licence disclaimer of course.

I would like to know what the incidence of penicillin related problems in rabbits actually is (anyone know of any papers, evidence etc.) When I was a student I did some Seeing Practice in Trinidad & Tobago and they used penicillin all the time in rabbits (Baytril pretty much didn't exist out there) - none of the staff there ever reported a problem. This was the Caribbean however, problems out there tended to be along the lines of running out of Fernandes rum, or not getting out the office until after 2pm....

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Edward Jones — Fri, 05 Nov 2010 07:12:50 GMT

[quote user="Rob Reid"] I have used oral ceporex drops in a few cases with good results.[/quote] Oral ceporex - Is that safe?

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

nikki — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 23:46:33 GMT

we use duph LA at same dose rate as on the bottle for dogs every 3days for rabbit abscesses now - baytril just doesn't seem to work for them. have also used duph la in guinea pigs with good results. not had any adverse effects so far but always warn owners.

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Noweia — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 20:58:32 GMT

I asked about it in small furries as I keep mice and was told the half life in mice was under a day. Mind you that must give several days per injection, as the half life in dogs and cats is 5 days and one jag lasts 14days in these species.

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 19:20:51 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

I think it is more due to the fact that rabbit pus is horrible, especially when encapsulated, and whether the abscess is in skin, jaw or lung antibiotics just don't penetrate into abscesses. To be fair, sensitivities usually show enro to be OK to use - it just doesn't work sometimes!!!

[/quote]

I used to believe this and for sure any abscess needs to be drained and debrided but my opinion is now that it was never that the antibiotic didn't work or penetrate but because the means by which we were attempting to give it i.e. diluted in drinking water or expecting owners to give it orally usually meant they weren't getting the correct dose but with a depot injection they are.

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Andrew Kent — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 18:39:20 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I don't know where that information has come from, certainly Convenia has a much shorter duration of action in birds but then most things do, but I've cured rabbit 'snuffles' and previously untreatable dental abscesses with one shot of the stuff - admittedly I didn't do any blood tests to find if the MIC or whatever was OK after any period of time but if it works - it works.[/quote]

It came from Pfizer when I last spoke to them about it (which was probably more than a year ago so it may have changed) who suggested convenia useless in this species as they had shown it lasted about 8 hours or something ridiculous like that.

Andy

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Rob Reid — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 17:09:25 GMT

Not tried convenia, but I have used oral ceporex drops in a few cases with good results. Use s/c crystapen for some cases, especially syphilis.

I too am not a Baytril fan, I do like engemycin though.

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 16:43:17 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Enrofloxacin has never particularly impressed me. I am not convinced that many of the rabbit 'bugs' are sensitive or responsive to it! May just be my impression though.[/quote]

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 16:15:19 GMT

[quote user="Andrew Kent"]

I don't think (though would love to be corrected) that convenia is a useful antibiotic in rabbits - as I understand it the duration of action in small furries has been shown to be very short (a matter of hours) and as such convenia doesn't really have a use.

Andy

[/quote]

I don't know where that information has come from, certainly Convenia has a much shorter duration of action in birds but then most things do, but I've cured rabbit 'snuffles' and previously untreatable dental abscesses with one shot of the stuff - admittedly I didn't do any blood tests to find if the MIC or whatever was OK after any period of time but if it works - it works.

cinweb quoted: "I've never tried a local treatment I wonder if it could help"?

I have tried home-made antibiotic pellets made using car body filler and Augmentin powder packed into an abscess cavity which worked well but it involves a surgical procedure whereas if one injection does the job then that's a lot better IMO. Maluka honey seems to help as well.

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Cinzia Gandini — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 15:36:40 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="cinweb"]I use enrofloxacin is safer and licenced for rabbits[/quote]

Unfortunately it isn't always efficaceous against some bugs.

I use quite a lot of duphapen (penicillin G) for abscesses - 40mg/kg s/c SID

Also trimethoprim sulphonamides 40mg/kg po SID I have never used convenia - love to hear about it if you've found it useful though?

[/quote]

yes usually it's not working with Pasteurella and abscesses but my first choice is a licenced, unless already treated, if I move on something different I use Penicillin/Streptomycin injectable sc, I've never tried a local treatment I wonder if it could help

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Bob Russell — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 15:36:24 GMT

Enrofloxacin has never particularly impressed me. I am not convinced that many of the rabbit 'bugs' are sensitive or responsive to it! May just be my impression though.

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

James Allsop — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 15:36:23 GMT

I remember from a bunny lecture CPD (Sharon Redrobe i think) that you can use short acting amoxycillin or penicillin s/c for a course but they recommended avoiding synulox of cephalosporin. I tend to use a lot of engamycin - dose in the older SA formulary with the charts in the back has always served me well (15mg/kg daily or double dose every 3 days). I sometimes use this with inj or oral baytril for extended spectrum but oxytet has good activity against common bugs in bunnies

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 15:07:17 GMT

[quote user="cinweb"]I use enrofloxacin is safer and licenced for rabbits[/quote]

Unfortunately it isn't always efficaceous against some bugs.

I use quite a lot of duphapen (penicillin G) for abscesses - 40mg/kg s/c SID

Also trimethoprim sulphonamides 40mg/kg po SID I have never used convenia - love to hear about it if you've found it useful though?

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Cinzia Gandini — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 15:01:09 GMT

I use enrofloxacin is safer and licenced for rabbits, Penicillins are not used the only safe could be iInjectible Penicillin G Procaine, but I don't use it, convenia isn't licenced and it's a long lasting so even if I wouldn't use it

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 14:20:13 GMT

There is a previous thread on this subject. I use Convenia at the same dose as for dogs and cats i.e. 0.1ml/kg at the same frequency, although I've yet to give more than one injection per rabbit, with good results and no side effects (yet) but get an off-licence consent form signed as it is contra-indicated in the data sheets. Ditto for potentiated amoxycillin but I use very little in rabbits. Maybe put them on probiotics for the duration of the course, whether it helps is debatable but it makes you feel better.

Re: Convenia and Pencillin Doses for Rabbits?

Andrew Kent — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 14:15:33 GMT

Andy