RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Anthony Todd — Mon, 11 Oct 2010 20:32:04 GMT

This thread is just another example of the sheer stupidity and total lack of focus in the current bureaucratic society where everyone in authority has forgotten, or ignores, the reason for their existence.

Now we have The Royal Society for the Protection of Cruelty to Animals [my italics] actually increasing cruelty by way of this ridiculous and totally unnecessary directive.

Does anyone over the age of 10 really think it is impossible to train a qualifed RSPCA inspector to keep Pentobarb in a locked safe and to administer it intra peritoneally, intra thoracicly or intra cardiacly to alleviate or prevent animal suffering by way of euthanasia?

Does anyone think it would take more than an hour of training?

How many untrustworthy incompetent RSPCA inspectors are there?

This directive will massively increase animal suffering for absolutely no advantage to the animal at all.

I am appalled and disgusted but not surprised.

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Bob Russell — Sat, 09 Oct 2010 10:27:23 GMT

[quote user="Matthew Scotter"]

On that note, considering that non qualified and non-student registered vet nurses assistants are deemed as lay staff by the RCVS and therefore not allowed to perform sub-cut injections/identichips without supervision how on earth are groomers and breeders allowed to identichip animals? Should the person not only be trained on injections but considered responsible enough to deal with the permanent identity of animals? the chip may have to be used as part of a passport in the future. Personally I think this should be a vet only or RVN (with vet in building) job.

[/quote]

In the early days there was a video that implanters were encouraged to view!!! Not sure of the legal situation now but there are half-day training courses available!!

The low level of training was, I suspect to allow rescue kennel staff to implant rather than your friendly local groomer/pet shop owner/jack of all trades to do

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Laurence Webb — Fri, 08 Oct 2010 20:20:05 GMT

And a brick for the smaller ones?

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Bob Russell — Fri, 08 Oct 2010 12:49:30 GMT

The most recent letter from the RSPCA does indicate that the inspector can use 'another approved and appropriate method of euthanasia, dependent on the type and size of the animal'.

This should mean larger forms of wildlife can still be euthanased on site by captive-bolt etc.

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 12:58:08 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

It was grey,and I didn't release it-a broken back, so no moral dilemmas

Wynne

[/quote]

Excellent. I hate grey squirrels. Tree rats.

They are good eating you know? (seriously)

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 10:58:18 GMT

It was grey,and I didn't release it-a broken back, so no moral dilemmas

Wynne

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 06 Oct 2010 23:09:34 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]I'm at the moment waiting for an injured squirrel to be brought in[/quote]

If it's a grey squirrel make sure you don't release it!

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 06 Oct 2010 16:03:41 GMT

I've now discovered via my information network that it was the RSPCA CVO who decided that the 30 year old approx agreement with the Home Office needed clarifying-I'm at the moment waiting for an injured squirrel to be brought in !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who is the RSPCA CVO

Wynne

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 28 Sep 2010 09:19:23 GMT

Total agreement Becky

It seems that Vets Now don't adhere to the Memorandum of Understanding between the RSPCA and the BVA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wonder why ????????????

Home Office were responsible for this latest lunacy Again I wonder why ? Scared of/bribed by illegaldrug dealers, so decided to come after RSPCA Inspectors instead ????????????

Wynne

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Becky Filby — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:18:20 GMT

We regularly seem to get called OOH to euthanase wildlife for the RSPCA inspectors, and not just ones from the immediate area. I had a fox brought down in the middle of the night that had been severely injured in an RTA and travelled 40min to come to us. The inspector told me that he had been instructed to use us as we are the only practice in quite a substantial area that cover our own out of hours and that Vets Now, which were by far the nearest option, were more expensive. Surely it would be much better for the fox for the RSPCA to be able to have euthanased it at the scene and they would save a fortune in OOH payments to be used elsewhere?! I've lost count of the number of times the local RSPCA has instructed members of the public who have phoned about an injured hedgehog/rabbit etc to bring it to us OOH, almost invariably for euthanasia which I would have no problem with an inspector doing.

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 25 Sep 2010 21:56:21 GMT

Was the person who reported it an owner, possibly? If he/she was trying to score free vet care, of course they would have said the cat had severe injuries. Would you have seen the cat if he'd said "it's really really itchy"? Had the log numbers been issued to a member of public, the owner would have said the same thing to the call center operator re severe injuries. Would the rspca still pay out for a log number if it turned out the person wasn't honest about the extent of the injuries? (i'm aware that pets with log numbers are rehomed, we do get clients who either don't know this or try to get around it.)

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Andrew Kent — Sat, 25 Sep 2010 11:11:10 GMT

Our most recent RSPCA issue revolves around the fact they will no longer issue log numbers to members of the public, onto direct to vets and then only if the operator deems it appropriate that emergency treatment was required. This means we can now be in the situation where we have to see animals out of hours to triage them but may not get any compensation if it turns out there is little wrong with them.

This puts us in a very difficult situation with regards to seeing these cases out of hours, and may well slow the process of seeing animals that desperately need to be seen.

An example was a cat that was 'rushed in' with 'severe wounds' that turned out to have miliary dermatitis and a flea allergy - the RSPCA declined to issue a log number and so none of our costs were covered.

My real issue with this is that the people deciding whether to issue a log number are not medically trained, merely call centre staff following the tick box script.

Andy

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

ms1083 — Fri, 24 Sep 2010 19:08:52 GMT

update on our situation. West Hatch Wildlife have said that, with vet permission on individual cases, vet nurses are allowed to pts causalities. If this is a RSPCA wide rule of just a local rule I do not know. This sounds much more sensible & fair. Often the duty "nurse" is not a qualified nurse so I do not yet know what the situation is then. However, how appropriate is it for the duty "nurse" responsible for a busy wildlife department not to be a qualified nurse?

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Mark Holmes — Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:40:56 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]American helicopter gunship - but watch for collateral damage[/quote]

The sheep would be the safest being in the county.

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Bob Russell — Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:28:40 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]

I was called by the police to a sheep RTA (apparently 'multiple broken legs' - how many legs do sheep have??) last night about 9pm. I gave an ETA of about 50mins - sheep about 25 miles away on the moors - and they said that would be too long and not to bother. I wonder what they did about the sheep if they couldn't call an RSCPA inspector? Farmer with a (licensed and correctly stored) shotgun? Or maybe the armed response unit?

[/quote]

American helicopter gunship - but watch for collateral damage!!

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Wren — Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:41:08 GMT

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Bob Russell — Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:41:44 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Don't fix it if it ain't broke

Wynne

[/quote]

If only!!!

Royal College, VMD, DEFRA, Environment Agency, Labour govmt, Conservative govmt etc etc - none of them can leave a working system alone. Changes to the rules rarely improve things, cover political backsides and break things in new places!!

If it has worked adequately (if not perfectly) for years why change it?

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:05:13 GMT

Don't fix it if it ain't broke

Wynne

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Malcolm Ness — Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:54:24 GMT

The reason I asked is that I don't know (my speculations have been similar to Wynne's). We have a fairly good working relationship with our local Inspectors and additionally, I have on several occassions appeared for as an expert in cases for RSPCA locally and nationally. Before you jump to conclusions, I am not some kind of tofu-weaving fluffy do-gooding apologist for RSPCA, I have also acted against them on more than one occassion.

Our only contact about the recent euthatal situation was from an exasperated Chief Inspector who was merely informing us - he seemed very unhappy with the change. I sincerely hope that this silliness can be changed back quickly before too much harm is done and equally I hope that the instigator is not a veterinary surgeon.

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:40:59 GMT

Malcolm I've been thinking about your question "who exactly is responsible for this silliness " The answer is the RSPCA Probably a better question would have been "Why this silliness ?"

I can think of 3 possible answers

Firstly, I have enormous respect for RSPCA Inspectors and ACOs This respect does not extend to national Council, some of who's decisions are (IMHO ), ill-informed and politically motivated. It is possible that some Council members were unaware that staff euthanased, and reacted to the information emotionally, rather than thoughtfully

Secondly (cynical viewpoint ), Council knew that staff euthanased, but when it became public knowledge, thought it might have an adverse effect on donations

Thirdly Inspectors and ACOs thought "We don't like killing animals either, so if the veterinary profession are going to criticise us, let's see how they would like to do our job, especially as the delicate little dears are whinging about OOH already " My opinion is that Inspectors and ACOs have a much better work ethic with regard to OOH than many of my profession-they accept it goes with the territory

I can well see the next adverse newspaper headline will be

"INJURED ANIMAL IN AGONY RSPCA NOT ALLOWED TO DO ANYTHING VETERINARY SURGEON REFUSED TO COME OUT "

Perhaps Royal College Council are more cany than I gave them credit, and deliberately provoked the RSPCA so as to precipitate a complaint so as to be able to deal with the no visit practices. Second thoughts, those Council members who are in practice aren't squeaky -clean, in this respect, if I remember the response to a certain "cold-caller " correctly

Wynne

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 24 Sep 2010 09:12:18 GMT

Fair enough Micheal, extenuating circumstances. The rest of the posts on what farmers do go a long way to explain why I deplore the way large animal practices have given them more and more freedom, presumably because they are scared of loosing custom to a competitor who has a more lenient policy

I think consumers would be absolutely horrified if they knew how easily farmers could get hold of antibiotics of their choice, how they , not the veterinary surgeon decides when and at what dosage they are used, and how often a full course is not given

Wynne

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Fiona French — Thu, 23 Sep 2010 20:02:09 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]The reason farmers cannot hit a milk vein is that they are probably using a "needle" which has been boiled on the stove a number of time and is no sharper than your finger tip if not a little rusty. The vein in its wisdom does its best to dive out of the way when approached by such a thing. Or at least that was my experience of farm work in the distant past.... have things changed?[/quote]

Alas not. The drench gun passed down from grandfather. THE farm syringe and needle.

All good and wholesome!

[/quote]

A farmer I used to visit, used to rummage through the back of my car and pocket any used needles and syringes he could find and put them all in a bucket of disinfectant.....

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 23 Sep 2010 17:56:36 GMT

Alas not. The drench gun passed down from grandfather. THE farm syringe and needle.

All good and wholesome!

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Mark Holmes — Thu, 23 Sep 2010 17:51:10 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I have seen the hash some farmers make trying to find milk veins?!?!?[/quote]

The reason farmers cannot hit a milk vein is that they are probably using a "needle" which has been boiled on the stove a number of time and is no sharper than your finger tip if not a little rusty. The vein in its wisdom does its best to dive out of the way when approached by such a thing. Or at least that was my experience of farm work in the distant past.... have things changed?

Re: RSPCA policy on euthanaesia

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 23 Sep 2010 17:46:03 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Micheal I wouldn't have given the euthatal to the farmer, in fact , I would have been very indignant to be asked, and would have regarded him as trying to cheat me out of a consult fee, so would have been only to pleased to interpret the law very strictly. Anyway, on the welfare aspect, were you absolutely certain the farmer was competant to find a vein in a dog ?[/quote]

This was an old collie dog. Loved her master - savage with anyone else. She was thin and probably had cancer - but she wouldbe be examined. He gave her a last meal laced with ACP tablets and when dopey gave the pentoject into the abdomen.

He was a very trusted farmer, I wouldn't give it to just anyone and it is the only time I have done it.

I have seen the hash some farmers make trying to find milk veins?!?!?