Rabbit scrotal incisions

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 08 Oct 2010 21:54:49 GMT

I do it closed in most cases unless the rabit is older with a very chunky cord!

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Vikki Halliday LLB — Fri, 08 Oct 2010 10:55:18 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"] any reason you don't just ligate the tunic and vessels in one go?[/quote]

Usually I incise the tunic to get the testicle out, so it would mean freeing the tunic completely from the scrotum, and then you may as well do a closed castration. I find it causes less tissue trauma and swelling if you don't peel off the scrotum from the tunic, and do them open like this.

I guess you could do it the way you suggest, I'm just used to putting the ligature on the cord, and a small ligature on the tunic, with which it is not as crucial to have a tight ligature as it only acts to close the inguinal canal, and there is no potential for haemorrhage as you have already ligated the cord.

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Mark Holmes — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 23:57:46 GMT

Hi Vikki, Nice pics, any reason you don't just ligate the tunic and vessels in one go? I have always omitted the transfix ligature stage and included when closing the tunic at the inguinal canal.

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 23:16:59 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]

http://www.vetsurgeon.org/media/p/25433.aspx

Piccies of scrotal castration in Members galleries

[/quote]

Appreciate it Vikki

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Jillian Hall — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 21:58:57 GMT

I give 0.2ml/kd Dom and 0.1ml/kg Ket Im for rabbits. Altho I gave a particularly feisty rabbit it's injection SC recently and it went to sleep fine so I'm going to try giving them all subcut as Im sure it will be much better tolerated. I know all the bunny experts advise IV induction agents, but the first one I gave IV Alfaxan to died on induction. OK, it was a giant breed and possibly had some underlying heart disease but I'm not sure I'l be brave enough to try it again any time soon.

Dom/Ket also means there's plenty of time to intubate, it won't wear off quickly like propofol or alfaxan. I always entubate spays/castrates but find the tube gets in the way a bit with dentals. And they tend to be too brief to need it. (I'll tube for incisor extractions. I tend to given full dose Antisedan for dentals on the basis they're still fully asleep but reduce to 50% for longer op's when they've already started to become light.

I've always castrated babbits via a single prescrotal incision but I'm definitely going to try the cdl scrotal technique. I'l try to remember to post my feedback when I do.

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Vikki Halliday LLB — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 21:34:46 GMT

No worries, G&T is my poison!

Hope it helps.

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Martin Jones — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 18:39:20 GMT

You absolute star!

Should we ever run into one another, the drinks are definitely on me........

Martin

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Vikki Halliday LLB — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 15:41:10 GMT

http://www.vetsurgeon.org/media/p/25433.aspx

Piccies of scrotal castration in Members galleries

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Vikki Halliday LLB — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 23:24:00 GMT

[quote user="Martin Jones"]The people that do this seem to have an inner calm, and I'd like to join the club.[/quote]

Hmm, I'll def try get you some piccies, however not convinced about the inner calm thing!!!!!

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

nikki — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 23:01:14 GMT

we use dom/torb/ket IM for rabbit ops - dentals get a half dose. spays/castrates a full dose which is 0.2ml/kg dom/ket and 0.1ml/kg torb. reverse with 0.2ml/kg antisdean. they also get metacam, metoclop SC and another metoclop 6-8hrs later. rarely need to give anything other than o2 by mask using the triple combo injection. i dont intubate them - takes me longer than the actual op.

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Louise6732 — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 19:07:07 GMT

Re GA protocols, I've had a good run with using medetomidine S/C, wait 5-15mins, when sleepy then ketamine diluted in 2mls sterile water, slow IV (In a pre-placed catheter) usually only need 1/2 the ketamine/water mixture. Are asleep enough to tube. We give meloxicam + buprenrophine + metaclopramide with medetomidine usually.

The past 3-4 spays/castrates I've used this protocol with, I've only needed to have them on oxygen, no Sevo necessary. I work with a very experienced nurse who is excellent on rabbits in general, I've learned everything about rabbits from her!

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Niall Taylor — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 18:58:49 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

I make 2 individual incisions right at the end of the sacs and then peel the skin back, closed technique. I don't seal the skin at all - the sctrotum shrinks very quickly and it is usually difficult to see the incisions by the time bunny goes home.

[/quote]

Me too, me too! Great minds etc...

Did take a fair bit of courage to leave the holes open the first time I used the technique though.

Niall

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Rob Davis — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:26:12 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Very quiet room, blind intubation works well for me.

[/quote]

Ditto. Quiet room, rabbit properly asleep (can top up with IV propofol as necessary). I position the rabbit in sternal recumbancy holding the head up with the neck flexed dorsally (in the "giving a cat a pill" position). Gently introduce tube while listening at end of tube. Should be able to feel/hear when close to the larynx. Watch the chest moving and try to introduce the tube on inspiration. I usually have one attempt initially, and if the tube doesn't go in easilly, then squirt small amount of lignocaine (usually around 0.2ml) through tube and onto larynx. Wait (see other thread on intubease etc!), then try again. I can't claim 100% success rate, but can do most. It is all about practice, and when I haven't done any for a while it definitely takes me longer.

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Bob Russell — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 16:40:29 GMT

[quote user="Acrobat77"]

[quote user="Rob Davis"]

doubled my efforts to intubate all rabbits now particularly for dental work.

[/quote]

Which begs the inevitable question - what's your secret to success with this? I have usually relied on blind intubation which has only a 50% success rate for me.

Thanks for all the replies everyone, sorry we've veered a bit off-topic

Dan

[/quote]

Get them 'properly' asleep first then the tube goes in much more easily. Very difficult if they are light to start with. I try to tube most ops but sometimes this is for the practice!!!

Very quiet room, blind intubation works well for me.

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Acrobat77 — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:51:10 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]

doubled my efforts to intubate all rabbits now particularly for dental work.

[/quote]

Which begs the inevitable question - what's your secret to success with this? I have usually relied on blind intubation which has only a 50% success rate for me.

Thanks for all the replies everyone, sorry we've veered a bit off-topic

Dan

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Rob Davis — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:06:52 GMT

[quote user="Acrobat77"]

Now there's a question - what GA technique are people using?

[/quote]

I place IV catheter in marginal ear vein (very easy and well tolerated if apply EMLA for a couple of minutes first). Taping with a syring on the ventral surface of the pinna helps. Give 2mg/kg propofol as "pre-med" to encourage them to accept the mask, mask with 100% O2 (flush system to ensure no nasty-smeling isoflo in tubing), give O2 for 2 minutes, then induce with further slow propfol to effect. They do require more than cats and dogs - usually require another 8mg/kg to be able to intubate, then onto O2/isofluorane.

Most of my colleagues prefer to use dom/ket, but the nurses generally feel that those which have had propofol recover much more quickly and are up and (hopefully) eating very quickly. The only rabbit GA death I can remember in the last 5 years is one which I was unable to intubate and a piece of tooth disappeared and lodged in the trachea and I was unable to retrieve it. I felt crap about that and have doubled my efforts to intubate all rabbits now particularly for dental work.

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

bob lehner — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:03:07 GMT

[quote user="Acrobat77"]

Now there's a question - what GA technique are people using?

[/quote]

There do seem to be a great number of rabbit g.a.cocktails based on dom/torb/ket/temgesic in varying proportions.

Some of the earlier recipes seemed to use huge doses of dom (at least relative to dogs and cats). I now use dom/torb/ket @ 0.4mls/0.2 mls/0.4 mls for a 4 kg rabbit and pro rata - nice and easy to remember - mixed in1 syringe and given i.m. -seems to work well - touch wood ....(and I'm certainly no bunny expert !). I tend to give a full dose antisedan afterwards - tho' many people seem to give the 1/2 dose rate - not sure if there is any evidence to say which is best ?

Would agree that minimising stress/handling is the main thing.

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Acrobat77 — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 13:05:54 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]

[quote user="Acrobat77"]

What dose of dom/ket do you use and how reliable is the anesthesia from this point of view (glad to hear you have a good safety record)

Cheers,

Dan

[/quote]

minor ops (teeth) 0.11 ml/kg dom 0.17ml/kg ketamine per kg and 50% reversal, major ops (neutering) 0.17ml/kg Dom and 0.26ml/kg ketamine and 50% reversal

[/quote]

Great, I'll give it a try - thanks

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Mark Holmes — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:55:43 GMT

Reliability fine usually, we use a mask and some gas if needed

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Mark Holmes — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:54:45 GMT

[quote user="Acrobat77"]

What dose of dom/ket do you use and how reliable is the anesthesia from this point of view (glad to hear you have a good safety record)

Cheers,

Dan

[/quote]

minor ops (teeth) 0.11 ml/kg dom 0.17ml/kg ketamine per kg and 50% reversal, major ops (neutering) 0.17ml/kg Dom and 0.26ml/kg ketamine and 50% reversal

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Acrobat77 — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:44:15 GMT

I've used dom/ket too. My last practice used xylazine / ket in separate syringes and the rabbits went to sleep well, but as soon as they got a scalpel blade near them (or the pull on the tunic) they started to protest. We were using iso but were getting up to silly levels.

What dose of dom/ket do you use and how reliable is the anesthesia from this point of view (glad to hear you have a good safety record)

Cheers,

Dan

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Kate Dawes — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:43:11 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]I don't suture or glue, if I have plenty of time I might pinch the skin together for 10 or 20 seconds but it is probably not required.[/quote]

I was taught to roll the skin between my fingers for a few secs - not sure if this makes much difference, but they heal fine, and generally with less reaction than with sutures or glue.

I do 2 mid scrotal incisions, open technique then suture tunic.

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Mark Holmes — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:27:00 GMT

Rabbit anaesthetics... I have a thing about these and having worked in lots of establishments with varying protocols I have come to this conclusion.... absolute minimal pre op stress and minimal handling. I have worked with various rabbit "specialists" who have iv catheters inplace pre oxygenisation etc etc and still seen far more rabbits "problems" than I am getting now I have turned to straight forward medetomidine and ketamine sub cut. Pre op checks done 24-48 hrs before hand so no handling pre op. Keep them quiet and away from cats and dogs. So far I have lost no rabbits in 18 months (touching lots of wood here) this was suggested to me by a friend of mine who had been in similar circumstances and since adopting this protocol the suicide rate in his rabbit ops had stopped as well.

Dom reversed with 50% volume atipamazole im

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Acrobat77 — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 11:51:13 GMT

I'm the same as post above - 2 scrotal incisions and closed ligation with vicryl after peeling tunic down. No sutures/glue, all done in about 3-4 minutes provided the rabbit stays asleep....

Now there's a question - what GA technique are people using?

Re: Rabbit scrotal incisions

Mark Holmes — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 11:24:41 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]

I open scrotum and tunic peal the tunic away from skin and ligate as you would for a closed castrate. It is possible to peel out quite a long tunic and ligate fairly proximally. I don't suture or glue, if I have plenty of time I might pinch the skin together for 10 or 20 seconds but it is probably not required.

Mark

[/quote]

It is sufficiently quick that I don't intubate as it can be done quicker than intubation.