Front dew claw removal in pug puppies

Re: Front dew claw removal in pug puppies

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 13:15:57 GMT

[quote user="i am ed"]When I've done rear dews at the same time as docking, I've never found a pup to actually respond to the dew procedure at all. But, I always did the dews after the tail, so at that stage the pups were probably beyond feeling much more. I assume doing front dew at the same time as docking would be similar?[/quote]

I tail first and get no reaction to the dew claws, front or back. Most squeek for a few seconds after cutting tail, but they go to sleep quickly.

Re: Front dew claw removal in pug puppies

Edward Jones — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 09:14:53 GMT

I should say, I appreciate the argument from the other side of the coin, Michael.

It's something I used to be much more comfortable with than I am now, although front dew claws have always been much more of an issue to me than tail docking, simply because I think front dew claws have a more useful function than the tip of the tail.

When I've done rear dews at the same time as docking, I've never found a pup to actually respond to the dew procedure at all. But, I always did the dews after the tail, so at that stage the pups were probably beyond feeling much more. I assume doing front dew at the same time as docking would be similar?

Age old argument that goes round and round in circles! I'm happier now that I'm not doing any. I didn't buy the argument from the breeder that pug puppies are at significantly more risk than any other breed.

Re: Front dew claw removal in pug puppies

Andre Escudeiro-Vieites — Wed, 08 Sep 2010 22:05:02 GMT

[quote user="i am ed"]

I rarely saw front first digit claw injuries when I was in rural practise, certainly no more frequent than the occasional accident that happens with any claw.

[/quote]

I agree. Dogs "use" their front dew claws a lot, and their mutilation doesn't seem reasonable, but it would be interesting to have some study simillar to that a read about a few times saying that you would need to dock 500 tails to avoid 1 severe tail injury.

I have to say though that in my experience (only SA in the last 4 years) "torn dew claws" appointments are much more frequent than those related to any other claws, but I agree again in that they are simple problems with quick and minimally painfull resolution

Re: Front dew claw removal in pug puppies

Edward Jones — Wed, 08 Sep 2010 21:37:45 GMT

I rarely saw front first digit claw injuries when I was in rural practise, certainly no more frequent than the occasional accident that happens with any claw. My point of view is that after seeing any dog play is enough to show that evolutionary retention of the front first digit was appropriate. I've never thought working dogs were at any more risk.

In my experience the majority of claw injuries are trivial anyway - 90% of cases the dog is back out the door within a minute after a short sharp yank.

Re: Front dew claw removal in pug puppies

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 08 Sep 2010 20:16:26 GMT

Am I the only vet who sees front dew claw injuries very commonly? I don't do much small animal work but will see as many torn dew claws hanging off as full anal glands [sacs if you insist].

We will remove them if asked at the same time as docking tails - only ever been asked to do it to working dogs.

I can find enough references in anatomy textbooks to stand up in court and 'prove beyond reasonable doubt' that 'dew claw' is a sufficiently acceptable term for the appendage on both front and back legs.

Re: Front dew claw removal in pug puppies

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 08 Sep 2010 18:15:47 GMT

I'd love to know too!

Re: Front dew claw removal in pug puppies

Edward Jones — Wed, 08 Sep 2010 15:48:08 GMT

The College's standing on this seems contradictory.

Firstly they argue that front first digits are not dew claws (and presumably that prophylactic removal without anaesthetic in puppies whose eyes have not yet opened is not covered by the exception in the 'Mutilations (permitted procedures)' part of the Animal Welfare Act 2006), then go to say that there are circumstances where such removal of the front first digit is acceptable.

Which is it?

Re: Front dew claw removal in pug puppies

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 08 Sep 2010 15:04:33 GMT

[quote user="i am ed"]Do you think this could make prophylactic removal of front first digits without anaesthetic entirely illegal?[/quote]

It would be great if it was - we could say no and rest in the knowledge that we are abiding by the law and if the client goes ahead anyway, they can be prosecuted. Same as with tails - which I will not do, with paperwork or without.

Re: Front dew claw removal in pug puppies

Edward Jones — Wed, 08 Sep 2010 13:37:14 GMT

No missiles from me! - Having done the procedure you're better informed to debate the issues than someone that hasn't.

I've done rear dew claws, but not had opportunity to do front first digits.

I don't buy the 'it's better to be done by a vet' argument entirely, I prefer to stick to my guns.

In this case I've refused on the usual grounds - 'it's an unnecessary mutilation', but also on the fact they're too old - it wouldn't be illegal because their eyes are still closed, but the RCVS seems to say that they should be under 5 days.

It's interesting that the college does not deem front first digits to be 'dew claws'. It's never been tested in court, but if the RCVS has this line then a court may well agree. Do you think this could make prophylactic removal of front first digits without anaesthetic entirely illegal?

Re: Front dew claw removal in pug puppies

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 08 Sep 2010 11:47:31 GMT

I do agree that dogs should keep their 'thumbs' and breeders should be better educated about this matter. But at the risk of being devil's advocate - if the breeders are adament, and just going to do it themselves anyway, isn't it better performed by a vet? I am not saying I agree with it - just that it is a quick procedure that no doubt causes much pain but from which the puppies recover very quickly (my personal cut off is 3 days old.)

Before I get missiles launched at me, I have carried it out in two litters in 6 years - I manage to convince most people of the error of their ways.

Re: Front dew claw removal in pug puppies

Edward Jones — Wed, 08 Sep 2010 10:15:58 GMT

Thank you Bob and Rob. You prompted me to google for the RCVS guidance (something I should have done initially!). Article in question is here: http://www.rcvs.org.uk/shared_asp_files/uploadedfiles/rcvs/009cbe16-bd5d-45d8-835a-0baf33a0c48e_advicenote16-theremovalofdewclaws.pdf

I never realised the timing was related specifically to whether the eyes are open .

Interesting point 'The removal of first digit of the fore limb is justified only if, in the veterinary surgeon's professional opinion, the particular anatomy/appearance of the digits invites possible damage.'

It seems to me that if the anatomy of the front 'dew' claw is normal, then removal is indefensible.

I've never heard of a pug with front dews causing damage to its eyes, but then I don't see all that many pugs and those that I do I can't say I check to see if the dew claws are present!

This article relates to a meeting concerning the definition of 'dew claw' (whether the 1st digit on the front legs should be included within the term) is interesting: http://www.rcvs.org.uk/shared_asp_files/uploadedfiles/rcvs/20655019-2ff4-4fa1-bac6-7a954db24822_acsep08ai18.pdf

Edit: Thanks Arlo, for making my links clickable!

Re: Front dew claw removal in pug puppies

Rob Reid — Wed, 08 Sep 2010 10:11:48 GMT

I would say no. I think you need a pretty good reason to justify chopping a dogs thumbs off !!!

I have never heard of a Pug breeder saying this.I would sugget that eye problems in this breed are probably more a result of other anatomical issues rather than a result of direct trauma - they are only going to rub their eyes in the first place if there is something making them sore or itchy.

Re: Front dew claw removal in pug puppies

bob lehner — Wed, 08 Sep 2010 09:59:45 GMT

The RCVS Guide to Prof.Conduct has an advice note on dew claws , which is quite interesting. Says you can remove them before the pup's eyes are open - but distinguishes between hind dew claws and fronts - which it says are not really dew claws at all anatomically - and should only be removed if the 'anatomy/appearance' is going to cause problems in the opinion of the v.s.

(To me 5 1/2 days would be a bit too old, even tho' eyes are still closed).

Follow a rather tortuous link - RCVS website, veterinary surgeons, guide to professional conduct, additional advice, advice notes - no. 16 Dew claws.

I've never personally been asked to de-dew claw pugs. Would guess a pug rubbing its eyes with paw/dew claw probably already has an ulcer or whatever, for some other reason. I think I would just tell owners to keep the dew claws as short as possible - and treat eye probs as soon as poss, before the dog rubs the eye excessively with the dew claw......