Inflammatory bowel disease + diets

Re: Inflammatory bowel disease + diets

Sandra Milburn — Mon, 23 Aug 2010 19:50:47 GMT

Hi Catherine

Just in case your owners still want to pursue the 'raw' food avenue - here is a company, that does it all for the owners.

0844 656 1566

www.darlingsrealdogfood.com

Really lovely people too, so you can put your owners on to them which is hugely time saving.

Hope that helps :)

Re: Inflammatory bowel disease + diets

sophia guymer — Mon, 23 Aug 2010 19:18:43 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]like me, you are clearly capable of self-denigration so no, it doesn't really show[/quote]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]life is too short to put up with this amount of aggravation.[/quote]

I agree I am all in favour of being 'open and honest' as I like to call it, blunt is what others might say it works though, bit like marmite, they love it or hate it.

Re: Inflammatory bowel disease + diets

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:08:36 GMT

[quote user="sophia guymer"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Perhaps we should invent Guymer's Law: all veterinary discussions will lead to Tom Lonsdale and RMB![/quote]

Oy you! the original post actually asked about feeding RAW, I only answered the question!!!!!

You hit a nerve, does it show?

[/quote]

You're right about answering the OP but if I'd admitted that it wouldn't have given me the chance to quote Godwin's Law I've been waiting for since someone else did it me on another forum. Anyway, like me, you are clearly capable of self-denigration so no, it doesn't really show!

Back to the OP there are sometimes when the best line of approach with these clients is to give them some home-truths and say what you really think, they will then either toe the line or go somewhere else and either way you win, life is too short to put up with this amount of aggravation. I live by my signature poem.

Re: Inflammatory bowel disease + diets

sophia guymer — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:28:24 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Perhaps we should invent Guymer's Law: all veterinary discussions will lead to Tom Lonsdale and RMB![/quote]

Oy you! the original post actually asked about feeding RAW, I only answered the question!!!!!

I am the last person(of the people actually feeding RAW) who will try and persuade others to do the same. I am not interested in trying to safe the world, been there done that got the t shirt. Just living my own life now, trying to help others when asked thank you very much.

You hit a nerve, does it show?

Re: Inflammatory bowel disease + diets

Rob Reid — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 12:44:10 GMT

This sounds like a bit of a nightmare case to me! I think clinically you are well on track - you have a diagnosis and you know what to do about it and that it will work. Your major headache is owner compliance, which sounds terrible Let's face it - we've all been in this situation - you do your level best to explain everything thoroughly to the owner and explain the implications of any treatment involved. They then go off and surf the net or speak to the breeder and all your hard work is undone.

[quote user="Catherine Williams"]he was placed on home cooked white fish & sweet potato diet and recommended metronidazole + pred. The clients rejected the meds but went with the diet and for a couple of months gained wt + stopped vomiting. About 2mths ago they changed him onto Wainwrights turkey + rice (one of these wet foods in flat pack trays - turkey, rice, seaweed, chicory) + James Wellbeloved turkey crackerjacks.[/quote]

In terms of which diet to feed - the home cooked diet (fish and yam) worked well. Why did the owner suddenly decide to change onto Wainwrights? Why not suggest they go back to this? Sure a raw food diet may be worth a try (and I do think they actually work well in some cases) but you've got something that has been proven to work already - if the owner can't be bothered to cook this every day are they really going to persist with raw food and the preparation involved?

[quote user="Catherine Williams"] I persuaded them to use the recommended meds - pred at 40mg sid + metronidazole 600mg bid. He's been on this approx 3wks in which time he hasn't vomited or drooled, his droppings are improved in consistency + frequency but he has dropped wt down to 33.5kg, the lightest he has ever been. Over the last 48hrs he has also become rather depressed and lethargic.[/quote]

Has the owner really been giving the medication? This doesn't sound like a dog that's been on preds for 3 weeks....if they haven't then threaten them with azathioprine! Or have they been smuggling the dog something else (or worse giving it homeopathy - now I'm for it, await brickbats!)

The key to improving this case I feel doesn't lie in what you do diet or what drug you use (you already know what is going to work) but in improving owner compliance. The clients can either work with you or against you - and if they are working against your advice then there is no point in having them as your client as the vet-client trust has gone from both ends. What I find can sometimes work quite well in these situations is actually getting a colleague to talk to the owner and go through everything again - sometimes just them hearing it from a different POV is enough (I guess I am also lucky in that I have a very good boss)

Good luck, and I sympathise with you - we have all had clients like this!!

Re: Inflammatory bowel disease + diets

Richard Carter — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 11:08:35 GMT

Think you have to sit them down & say to them it's their dog and their decision - based on your experience etc recommended route - preds (or sulphasal), metron, vit suppl and changed diet etc.

what worst can happen if they decide on RMB? - more d+ - in which case you have tried it. Problem is that when its 12 midnight and the stuff is flowing everywhere, these clients will then want to make it your problem...

Also have you tried the chappie chick /rice - have seen loads of GSDs and golden retrievers with infiltrative enteritis/colitis type syndromes do really well (with occ preds for the off days)

Re: Inflammatory bowel disease + diets

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:44:19 GMT

[quote user="sophia guymer"]

I feed raw myself, yes did make the change immediately, didn't mess about with mixing in etc. BUT, would I as its vet, advice people to do this in such a compromised dog????? Hmmmm, would probably contact Roger on that one. I do think it would improve the dog. If they desperate, make sure they get the book 'work wonders', I know Tom Lonsdale takes it a bit far, I don't agree with a lot of stuff he says, but as the diet goes, he does make good points on do's and don'ts and they are very important especially in such a big dog!!!! Feeding too small would seriously cause a problem. I would probably start this dog on half a chicken per meal, one meal a day. But as I say, I would be very careful doing it in this dog. Try if you can contact Roger M.

[/quote]

Have you ever heard of Godwin's Law?: all discussions will eventually lead to Hitler. Perhaps we should invent Guymer's Law: all veterinary discussions will lead to Tom Lonsdale and RMB!

Re: Inflammatory bowel disease + diets

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 23:14:22 GMT

[quote user="stephen sargent"]

[quote user="Utlendigur"]1521, 95 theses and a church door[/quote]

No, you've still lost me I'm afraid.

[/quote]

Oh, all right then.

Martin Luther nailed his "theses" to the church door.

A Diet was just a council of the princes of the German states in the Holy Roman Empire. They had one at a place called Worms to discuss Luther.

As a schoolboy I didn't realise it was all political........ the princes used Lutheranism to undermine the Emperor so they voted to tolerate it.

You probably wish you hadn't asked now.

Re: Inflammatory bowel disease + diets

sophia guymer — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:09:32 GMT

[quote user="Catherine Williams"]now wants to try raw meat diet + to make the change immediately so he doesn't lose any more wt.[/quote]

Re: Inflammatory bowel disease + diets

stephen sargent — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:46:35 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]1521, 95 theses and a church door[/quote]

No, you've still lost me I'm afraid.

Re: Inflammatory bowel disease + diets

Utlendigur — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:25:57 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Never heard of the Diet of Worms?

Oh, ancient, ancient schoolboy joke.

[/quote]

1521, 95 theses and a church door

(Almost-as-ancient schoolgirl wracks memory)

Re: Inflammatory bowel disease + diets

stephen sargent — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:02:02 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Never heard of the Diet of Worms?

Oh, ancient, ancient schoolboy joke.

[/quote]

No! Please explain more!

Re: Inflammatory bowel disease + diets

Aurelijus vet — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:54:33 GMT

Hi,

I think in this case, need to try another diets.I am using the integrated treatment.Good result given the Specific diets(Digestive support) and others measures ex.Hepagen 0.1 ml/kg. sid. Canicur, Finidiar,Enteroferment.Tenazym paste(neomycin,tetracyclin,prednisolon,chymotripsinum,papainum,trypsinum Veyx pharma)

Re: Inflammatory bowel disease + diets

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 02:23:27 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

[quote user="Catherine Williams"]

Ok, I'm aware I might be opening a can of worms here

[/quote]

Never heard of that diet before

[/quote]

Never heard of the Diet of Worms?

Oh, ancient, ancient schoolboy joke.

Re: Inflammatory bowel disease + diets

Utlendigur — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 00:51:07 GMT

[quote user="Catherine Williams"]

Ok, I'm aware I might be opening a can of worms here

[/quote]

Never heard of that diet before

I've currently got a severely hypoproteinaemic, oedematous, ascitic large crossbred belonging to vegan owners who distrust all medications, can't afford/don't want prescription diets and have been feeding the dog on vegan dog food - as you can imagine trying to sort out a home cooked diet (while waiting for results etc ) was ...challenging since they'd never cooked meat. So you aren't alone.

Re: Inflammatory bowel disease + diets

Rob Loxley — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:45:43 GMT

What is B12 level? If low, supplementation can produce good improvement. Just a thought.

Re: Inflammatory bowel disease + diets

Andrew Kent — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 21:04:36 GMT

I tend to push for hydrolysed diets for these (ZD or RCW Hypoallergenic) at least for a 6-8 week period, then try to move onto novel protein source if an improvement. I have had one case resolve when a client decided to switch to a raw diet, I was very sceptical before this but perhaps slightly less so now. It is not, however, an area that I have experience in formulating so I would leave them to get advice from somebody who knows more than me.

In terms of other medication if serum albumin level is ok then I will do an antibiotic trial first with something like metronidazole, oxytet or tylosin. Then I will add in immunosuppressive medication if that doesn't resolve the signs (often use this earlier if v low albumin.)

Adding fibre to the diet can also have benefit in some cases.

Andy