Puppies without docking certificates

Re: Puppies without docking certificates

Anna Jackson — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 22:39:43 GMT

Sorry everyone of course I meant VDS not VMD! Of course I see the point about 'intention' to work and in my rural practice we have many owners that do work their docked dogs but lets not kid ourselves that many many docked puppies are never 'intended' to be used for working at any point and are bought with the only intention of being a family pet. I think another example of the law as it stands being unworkable and the fact that a few people are prosecuted is (in my experience) probably only the tip of the iceberg with regard to exempt and non exempt breeds being docked without certification ie probably not be a vet. Thanks for the clarification on the certificate though - I currently photocopy the certificate and make a note on the records that we have seen it for our clients but I guess for new clients this means that it is probably most important to just check the microchip rather than need to see the certificate?

Re: Puppies without docking certificates

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 09:21:28 GMT

Find one of these and knock your head against it for all the good reporting or complaining will do.

Re: Puppies without docking certificates

ms1083 — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:16:39 GMT

Totally agree with all points above, I would certainly not withhold vaccine/chipping/treatment. It is very annoying that no enterprise seems committed to enforcing the law, I have asked the RCVS before and got a totally useless response. Unless someone does enforce it, then docking will continue. I feel we must be tactful, it is not our client's fault and whilst it is important to explain the law and that the dog has been docked illegally I try to not blame the current owner as at the end of the day they are our paying customer. Educating the public is only 1 side of the problem, those that still dock illegally need to be prosecuted to stop the practice completely. Maybe it is a job for the animal health department (those that are present at farm animal markets) of trading standards?

Re: Puppies without docking certificates

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 21 Jul 2010 23:52:20 GMT

[quote user="Anna Jackson"]Had spoken to the VMD[/quote]

VDS?

[quote user="Anna Jackson"]This is because I was under the (maybe false?) impression that the whole idea of legally docked dogs having a certificate is that this was presented to the vet every time it was seen for veterinary treatment and therefore (obviously within reason and depending on reason for coming to vets) you should not be seeing animals with no certificate.[/quote]

No - there is no requirement for this anywhere. The puppy does need a certificate that it is docked and it does need to be permanently identified with a microchip and that can either be done at the time or an unspecified time later. I do it at the time of docking.

There is no problem having a dog with a docked tail kept as a pet. So long as the dog is 'intended' to work it's ok. What if a working ESS turns out gun shy? It could be a long time before this becomes obvious.

If you want to know more, read the legislation here

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/uksi_20071120_en_1

If the owner brings shotgun cert and signs the declaration that they intend them to be working so long as they are the correct breed the dogs can be docked.

Nowhere can I find who's supposed to police this - I'd guess trading standards?

Re: Puppies without docking certificates

Charlotte Marshall — Wed, 21 Jul 2010 23:14:05 GMT

Same here. I had one in just today. I advised the owner of the position but having checked the dog was not already chipped I did give the vaccination and chip. These people were already the second owner and had no way of tracking the breeder down so I don't see how you can refuse to now chip the dog as they got it in good faith and now want the protection for their pet. (It was a rottweiler so it is difficult to see how it would have been legally docked as i have yet to meet a working one!)

Re: Puppies without docking certificates

Vikki Halliday LLB — Wed, 21 Jul 2010 23:03:11 GMT

[quote user="i am ed"]I can't see why this should be an issue, it's not illegal to treat an illegally docked dog after all.[/quote]

Quite.

Albeit that we may be abhorred by the behaviour of both the breeder who carried out the illegal docking and the ignorant sod who bought the pup, we are not there to police the law. That is a trading standards issue, and all you can do is advise the owner that the breeder has acted illegally, that they may be challenged by e.g. an RSPCA inspector as to the status and origin of the dog. But they themselves as owners, ignorant or not, cannot be made to feel like criminals!

I see plenty of these, and usually advise the owners of the legal position, however would NEVER withold any vaccination or treatment, as it could be constituted as failure to carry out your obligations under your oath!

I suspect eventually the message will get across that docking will not be tolerated, but it needs education, not penalty to the owners.

Re: Puppies without docking certificates

Edward Jones — Wed, 21 Jul 2010 21:05:27 GMT

[quote user="Anna Jackson"]Had spoken to the VMD re any potential fallout[/quote]

Do you mean the VDS (vet defense society) rather than the VMD (vet medicine dictators)?

[quote user="Anna Jackson"]from dogs seeing another vet and them reporting me (as i had signed vacc certificate) for not ensuring puppy had docking cert.[/quote]

I can't see why this should be an issue, it's not illegal to treat an illegally docked dog after all.

Re: Puppies without docking certificates

Anna Jackson — Wed, 21 Jul 2010 20:48:28 GMT

Hi - I just had said to a few people that I would need the certificate and/or breeder information to do the microchip (which we do as standard with the second vacc) as you have to fill in the microchip details to complete the form. Had spoken to the VMD re any potential fallout from dogs seeing another vet and them reporting me (as i had signed vacc certificate) for not ensuring puppy had docking cert. This is because I was under the (maybe false?) impression that the whole idea of legally docked dogs having a certificate is that this was presented to the vet every time it was seen for veterinary treatment and therefore (obviously within reason and depending on reason for coming to vets) you should not be seeing animals with no certificate. Now I do see that there is a flaw here on the treatment front but does it not make even more of a farce of the whole thing if regardless of whether the dog is docked legally or illegally or is an exempt breed and legally docked but not in a working home that a vet doesn't ask to see the certificate for routine and non-routine treatment (again, within reason here). Thanks for the reply and your thoughts - Anna

Re: Puppies without docking certificates

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:58:23 GMT

It's tough, but I think in such a case the illegal docker has got away with it, and that's all there is to it.

I don't see what it has to do with VMD (although I'm sure VMD would like to extend their empire.......... oops, wrong thread!)

I don't quite see why you would want to refuse to do the second vaccination and a microchip.