Viacutan (eg) and pancreatitis

Re: Viacutan (eg) and pancreatitis

sophia guymer — Tue, 29 Jun 2010 19:10:06 GMT

[quote user="Rob Smith"]let's NOT see a debate on RMB!!![/quote] I gathered that.

I have no intention of doing such a thing, I just feed my dog my way, don't have a prob with what other people think or do or why, don't try to persuade anyone (clients included) to feed Raw either. It just came up because of the salmon oil thing

Re: Viacutan (eg) and pancreatitis

Rob Smith — Mon, 28 Jun 2010 20:31:09 GMT

OOPS!!! Meant to say let's NOT see a debate on RMB!!!

Re: Viacutan (eg) and pancreatitis

Rob Smith — Mon, 28 Jun 2010 20:30:43 GMT

*Please*, for the love of god, let's now see a debate on RMB!!!! ;-)

You love it or hate it, (I hate it), but noone's going to change their opinion in a hurry!

Re: Viacutan (eg) and pancreatitis

sophia guymer — Mon, 28 Jun 2010 19:49:21 GMT

Not really. Time for little confession, I feed my dog raw. On the yahoo forum (RMB) the people that have been feeding their animals raw for donkey years claim the salmon oil is by far better than codliver oil. For one, codliver oil contains vit D (? so I have been told) and Salmon oil does not.

I am too lazy to try and actually find out about it, , so just saw my chance to ask, .

I do ( and always did with my dogs that were fed on dog food) give codliver oil, did my others the world of good. Whenever I stopped it, my terrier would get itchy and the shepherds coat would get dull. That was enough 'proof' for me.

Just wondered where the whole salmon oil thing is coming from and if someone on the forum might know.

Re: Viacutan (eg) and pancreatitis

sophia guymer — Mon, 28 Jun 2010 19:44:34 GMT

[quote user="Alex Allen"] Cortavance [/quote]

Yes, thought I mentioned it but must have slipped my mind, he is being sprayed with that twice weekly as well as the rest.

[quote user="Alex Allen"]

Topical Shampoos - eg Allermyl?

Worth a read: Veterinary Dermatology

[/quote] To be honest, the whole reason of referring him for his skin was because I couldn't settle it and the dog is insured. But the rest of the dog is now making it difficult thus the question. I am not really looking for help to sort out his skin as such, I will refer him back to David for that, am more interested to find out about opinions on the pancreatitis side of things.

[quote user="Alex Allen"] I would still advise other treatment before enteric EFA supplementation due to the history of pancreatitis.[/quote]

Thanks, that was the kind of thing I was after although I had hoped for a different answer .

Re: Viacutan (eg) and pancreatitis

Alex Allen — Mon, 28 Jun 2010 11:50:46 GMT

Have you tried Cortavance (topical potent steroid with minimal systemic effects)?

Topical Shampoos - eg Allermyl?

Worth a read: Veterinary Dermatology, June 2010 - International Task Force on Canine Atopic Dermatitis have published their Practice Guidelines on managing Atopic cases.

A very crude summary is - use more treatment approaches to acheive the best response. ie Systemic immunomodulators + EFAs + Shampoos + Topical steroids etc etc.

Thanks Rob for recommending Complederm! The product is made by Virbac and has a higher dose of EFAs compared with some "petshop" EFA supplements. It also has co-factors and vitamins added as there has been suggestion that some atopic patients are deficient in these leading to the breakdown of the skin barrier function. EFA science is still in its infancy and theories are being suggested and tested all the time.

In relation to Acute Pancreatitis a 10ml dose of Complederm would contain 4472mg EFAs, a 20kg dog consuming a well known veterinary diet would have >11,000mg EFAs per day. I would still advise other treatment before enteric EFA supplementation due to the history of pancreatitis. Over cautious maybe but if EFAs were to be used I would recommend the owner is given suitable warnings and monitoring for pancreatic disease is performed. Other aetiological agents (drugs, proteins, metals) have also been suggested for triggering acute pancreatitis so fats are not purely to blame.

Alex Allen - tech advisor, Virbac

Re: Viacutan (eg) and pancreatitis

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 28 Jun 2010 09:33:40 GMT

[quote user="Rob Smith"]

Bit old hat yourself there aren't you?! FA supplementation these days is all about skin barrier function, and there is a lot who question any antiinflammatory potential of altering w3:w6 ratio.

[/quote]

Back to the future then! - wasn't that was the belief before someone decided there was an anti-inflammatory component? I think there is so much we don't know about the way EFA's work that it is dangerous to be dismissive, for now let's just accept they work, they certainly help my knees and I don't think there's any skin barrier inside them.

And, is there any evidence to suggest that EFA supplementation can aggravate pancreatitits after the acute stage? Its a pretty small volume compared to the fat even in a restricted fat diet. It's not something I've come across but I'm happy to be corrected and eat my (low fat) hat if it's so.

Re: Viacutan (eg) and pancreatitis

Rob Smith — Sun, 27 Jun 2010 21:57:39 GMT

I haven't seen any evidence of efficacy of Salmon oil...haven't got chance to pubmed it now...are you aware of any?

Re: Viacutan (eg) and pancreatitis

sophia guymer — Sun, 27 Jun 2010 18:55:26 GMT

[quote user="Rob Smith"]due to the risk[/quote]hmmm yes that is my worry, was hoping to be told I was worrying for no reason, apparently there are more who worry, may be I shouldn't do it then.

[quote user="Rob Smith"]Complederm.[/quote]Never heard of it. Will look into. How do you feel about salmon oil (not in this case, but seeing as we are on the subject of FA suppl choice)

Used to have a terrier myself on which I could try all these things out, he did actually react well to viacutan, but then again, he also did to codliver oil and supposedly (so people are trying to make me believe now) that is completely out dated and we should be giving salmon oil.

Re: Viacutan (eg) and pancreatitis

Rob Smith — Sat, 26 Jun 2010 21:09:03 GMT

Oh sorry Sophia I didn't give my opinion. I wouldn't recommend giving an EFA supplement due to the risk...but I also don't like Viacutan...much prefer Complederm....bigger dose (IMHO Viacutan isn't enough)...better value...better ratio 3:6....more complementary ingredients....

Re: Viacutan (eg) and pancreatitis

Rob Smith — Sat, 26 Jun 2010 21:01:45 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

Besides the major modus operendi of Omega 3 supplements is anti-inflammatory

[/quote]

Bit old hat yourself there aren't you?! FA supplementation these days is all about skin barrier function, and there is a lot who question any antiinflammatory potential of altering w3:w6 ratio.

Re: Viacutan (eg) and pancreatitis

sophia guymer — Sat, 26 Jun 2010 19:29:56 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]If you're worried about the association of giving fats/oils to pancreatic dogs, IMO the volume here involved is minimal so I really can't see that it's an issue. [/quote]

Yes that was the concern, thanks for your input on that

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I'm not a fan of Viacutin per se but the principle of Omega 3s for dermatits is sound.[/quote]

An other supplement you prefer to use then, or do you just not use them at all? Just mentioned viacutan as that was the only one we have on the shelf.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]but has that been considered for the skin condition[/quote]

Not by me, as I happily referred him and let someone else sort it out. Possibly it was not an option? (David, care to comment if you are about??)

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] HAC as a contributory factor especially for the weight gain given the history of corticoids?[/quote] I assume you mean hyperadrenocortic? Yes, well that is rather hard in view of the steroids he was on I suppose, I can't remember the values of his biochem but do remember at the time we had no reason to believe it was abnormal for a dog on steroids. I have not done a ACTH stim if that is what you mean,didn't at the time feel the need as no other symptoms that point in that direction (no pupd, alopecia, nor slow hair regrowth on clipped areas),also not sure if would have been affected anyway by the oral steroids? . But it WAS the reason why I was eager to stop the steroids. We did check for pancreatitis again and hypothyroidism and that was both neg.

Thanks for your reply, hoping for some more replies, hopefully with same opinion and then can start him on supplements on monday.

Re: Viacutan (eg) and pancreatitis

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 26 Jun 2010 09:24:47 GMT

If you're worried about the association of giving fats/oils to pancreatic dogs, IMO the volume here involved is minimal so I really can't see that it's an issue. Besides the major modus operendi of Omega 3 supplements is anti-inflammatory so in theory that should be helpful in pancreatitis. I think the classical,'dogs eats high fat meal - gets acute pancreatits' scenario is a bit old hat. In my experience additional unecesary protein and carbohydrate intake is just as relevant, and there is certainly a genetic component almost irregardless of diet. I'm not a fan of Viacutin per se but the principle of Omega 3s for dermatits is sound. One question though, I'm not a fan of immunotherapy 'vaccines' having been able to manage 99% of my atopic dogs without, but has that been considered for the skin condition? Plus have you checked for HAC as a contributory factor especially for the weight gain given the history of corticoids?