prolonged heat in young bitch

Re: prolonged heat in young bitch

Rob Loxley — Fri, 25 Jun 2010 19:44:48 GMT

Best get that histiocytoma off quick before it disappears!

Re: prolonged heat in young bitch

Malcolm Ness — Fri, 25 Jun 2010 12:01:31 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Cured with a shot of Delvosterone and a week of Amoxycillin[/quote]

"Got better after" is perhaps more acccurate than "cured".

No causal relationship has been established.

To repeat once again the sage words of my mentor, the late prof Leslie Vaughan, " Remember, most things will get better in spite of what you do to them and not because of it!".

Re: prolonged heat in young bitch

Ruta — Fri, 25 Jun 2010 10:19:19 GMT

I agree with you, Martin, it may not be the heat. Because of that I am waiting for lab results to sort it out. But it could be the end of estrus as well. So why I need to measure level of progesterone.

Re: prolonged heat in young bitch

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 25 Jun 2010 09:12:31 GMT

[quote user="Ruta"]

The fact is, that I am afraid to spay her, because she is on season at the moment. But when I would have lab results, I hope to do the best decision.

[/quote]

Humorous sideshow apart, I thought the whole point of this thead was to suggest that she may not be in heat as its abnormal and the bloody discharge is something else more sinister!

Re: prolonged heat in young bitch

Ruta — Fri, 25 Jun 2010 09:01:08 GMT

Thak you very much for your feedbacks. It was really helpful for me. At last I have some ideas what should I do.

The fact is, that I am afraid to spay her, because she is on season at the moment. But when I would have lab results, I hope to do the best decision.

The o. don't have problem with money and she want to spay her anyway, but I would more happy to do that after her heat.

Ruta

Re: prolonged heat in young bitch

Vikki Halliday LLB — Thu, 24 Jun 2010 21:42:59 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]When I was a student I voted labour [/quote]

Good God man what were you thinking?

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] once I got my own business idealism went out out the window and I voted conservative.[/quote]

now that's more like it!

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Whilst I empathise with your views Vicky and Kate all you'll end up doing is getting more and more frustrated.[/quote]

Nope because I'm already on the Pinot Grigio, and all I was doing was pointing out the moral folly of these clients.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]You can philosophise as much as you want to these people but they won't listen, that's why there are as they are and you will just end up pulling your hair out.[/quote]

I still have a rather full head thankyou!

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] It took me a long time to learn but the way to long and stress-free life is to go with the flow and live and let live. Chill out and have a glass of Pinot Grigio.[/quote]

Already there, and I'm just as aged and cynical as you Martin,

Re: prolonged heat in young bitch

Kate Richardson — Thu, 24 Jun 2010 14:38:19 GMT

I do agree with you on this one ;nowadays what works for me is to give the best advice I can and then let them make their own minds up. Don't worry, I am just as cynical as you probably are. Once they have left my consult room, I forget about it. I have done my job. Its now up to them. But I still have a small amount of hope that my words of wisdom might have an impact on a small minority! Oh and I prefer a Sav Blanc, well chilled!

Re: prolonged heat in young bitch

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 24 Jun 2010 14:27:26 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]

Great, so how were they going to cope if she needed a caesarian............?

[/quote]

Agree with you Vicky, Those were my exact thoughts on reading this thread (and I have also seen a pyo in a young dog, ok not that common but it does happen.)

I know we can only give advice but I do think we have a moral/ethical responsibility to educate the public as well, and I think my advice here would have been to paint the worst case scenario regarding a caesarian, and advise spaying as the most cost effective option long term. Can't enforce it but can at least say to them ' well I told you'! If they have no money, hardly likely to be breeding pure breds (although funny how people with no money seem to be able to afford to buy one....) so also compounds the rescue/rehoming centre problems.

[/quote]

When I was a student I voted labour (only because communism wasn't an option), once I got my own business idealism went out out the window and I voted conservative. With age comes wisdom and experience and sadly, increasing cynicism. Whilst I empathise with your views Vicky and Kate all you'll end up doing is getting more and more frustrated. I don't necessarily agree with Michael's treatment protocol but sometimes realism outweighs idealism. You can philosophise as much as you want to these people but they won't listen, that's why there are as they are and you will just end up pulling your hair out. It took me a long time to learn but the way to long and stress-free life is to go with the flow and live and let live. Chill out and have a glass of Pinot Grigio.

Re: prolonged heat in young bitch

Kate Richardson — Thu, 24 Jun 2010 12:56:00 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]

Great, so how were they going to cope if she needed a caesarian............?

[/quote]

Agree with you Vicky, Those were my exact thoughts on reading this thread (and I have also seen a pyo in a young dog, ok not that common but it does happen.)

Re: prolonged heat in young bitch

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 24 Jun 2010 00:42:27 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]Great, so how were they going to cope if she needed a caesarian............?[/quote]

Not my problem?! If it needed one and they couldn't afford it, it would have to be PTS. I can't live my life thinking 'what if' at every decision. Common things occur commonly. Most bitches don't need caesarians, most pyo's are old dogs. I appreciate there are things there to bite your bum, but the saying "hear hooves, expect horses not zebra" springs to mind.

We can advise people to do things, but they have free choice. We're not the dog breeding police!

Re: prolonged heat in young bitch

Vikki Halliday LLB — Wed, 23 Jun 2010 23:46:38 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

I had a dog like this, owners had no money. Cured with a shot of Delvosterone and a week of Amoxycillin. They didn't want it spayed as thought might breed from her later.

[/quote]

Great, so how were they going to cope if she needed a caesarian............?

Re: prolonged heat in young bitch

Vikki Halliday LLB — Wed, 23 Jun 2010 23:45:32 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

That's great - but if it had been a true pyo.........

[/quote]

Really unlikely on first heat and had antibiotic cover.

[/quote]

I beg to differ! Seen in a 5 month old SBT who had had a good 14 days of potentiated amox, and was a true pyo.

Always expect the unexpected, look on the bright side of life, and no-one expects the Spanish Inquisition..........

Re: prolonged heat in young bitch

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 23 Jun 2010 21:36:12 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

That's great - but if it had been a true pyo.........

[/quote]

Really unlikely on first heat and had antibiotic cover.

When there's no money sometimes you have to take a gamble. If you explain what you'd do in an ideal world. A true pyo would have got worse and then either operate or PTS.

Re: prolonged heat in young bitch

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 23 Jun 2010 21:28:31 GMT

That's great - but if it had been a true pyo.........

Re: prolonged heat in young bitch

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 23 Jun 2010 21:25:24 GMT

I had a dog like this, owners had no money. Cured with a shot of Delvosterone and a week of Amoxycillin. They didn't want it spayed as thought might breed from her later.

Had normal seasons afterwards.

Re: prolonged heat in young bitch

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 23 Jun 2010 17:31:53 GMT

I'd suspect a pyometritis - have seen a few in bitches after first season so don't rule this out on basis of age.

If the owner doesn't intend to breed then I'd spay ASAP.

If the owner does intend to breed her then I'd do a vaginal cytology (and culture if no current antibiosis), then carry out ultrasound and blood sample, mainly for haematology.

Re: prolonged heat in young bitch

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 23 Jun 2010 15:39:38 GMT

This reminds me of a case I had in my first week in practice - hey, hey that's 35 years ago next month! Similar scenario, apparently heavy prolonged season, biochem was normal and bitch became so anaemic we gave it a blood transfusion. I wanted to do an ovaro-hysterectomy but boss didn't, he said bitches don't get pyos after their first season!, the long shot is that there was a temporary improvement then relapse and the owner had her PTS. I did a PM exam and she had what would in humans be called bleeding fibroids, a derivation of endometritis I guess, but nothing else. Never seen the like since except in my daughter's pet rat! I can't be certain there wasn't also a clotting disorder going on (it was a Golden Retriever) because we were't sophisticated enough to test for that then but I kicked myself for not sticking by my guns and spaying her. I may have been proved wrong and we're all wiser in hindsight but I leaned from that experience, never again be led away from my principles by anyone else, however wise they were, if I'd thought something through and still thought I was right, I was right. So after that little rant, this is something to think about if you eliminate possible clotting problems and PSS as suggested (which I admit wouldn't have considered unless it was linked to the liver and clotting problems), for sure try ultrasound but don' t be scared just to spay her.

Re: prolonged heat in young bitch

Mark Norcott — Wed, 23 Jun 2010 14:58:42 GMT

Hi Ruta

Personally I wouldn't administer vitamin K to a dog without strong evidence that there is a clotting problem (after check clotting times) and it is highly unlikely here. This should be stopped.

Also, I wouldn't expect the dog to have an increased temperature if it had vaginitis.

I think vaginal cytology would be an excellent idea to determine which stage of the oestrous cycle she is in. This could be combined with measurement of serum progesterone to provide further info. If progesterone is high for example, she has ovulated and is now in diestrus so discharge should disappear pretty quickly.

Remember many young bitches can have odd cycles the first or second time.

Ultrasound could be used to rule out pyometra as the discharge sounds more purulent now and if good ultrasonographer check ovaries for possibility of ovarian cysts.

Also worth bearing in bitches with portosystemic shunts can have prolonged cycles (could do a bile acid stim).

Hope that helps.