Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

salome2001 — Mon, 28 Jun 2010 22:02:08 GMT

[quote user="Ian Ross"]

Did anyone do the Vet Webinar last week about feline Infectious Diseases - some very interesting information about the use of renal cell lines in the production of vaccines, and whether this may influence renal disease in cats???

Sorrry to be provocative!

Ian

[/quote]

Yes Ian I did that one too. It's a theory that's been knocking around kitty med circles for a while, Mike Lappin from Colorado State has been publishing numerous articles on it for the last few years. Basically the theorum goes like this: vaccines are grown on crandell kidney cell cultures, when you prepare the vaccine: it's impossible to remove all kidney cell material so there is a potential for renal antigens to be injected, which in turn may stimulate antibody production in the host animal to the foreign antigens, and unfortunate cross-reactivity to the cat's own kidney cells.

Some articles are here:

Journal of Feline Medicine & Surgery
Volume 8, Issue 5, October 2006, Pages 353-356

American Journal of Veterinary Research

March 2005, Vol. 66, No. 3, Pages 506-511

Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine

Volume 24 Issue 2, Pages 306 - 313

Published Online: 28 Jan 2010

From what I understand, there's no hard evidence to show that there is a causal relationship between presence of antibodies and development of nephritis in cats, but it's an interesting area to keep in mind.

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 28 Jun 2010 15:57:32 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Quite frankly I wouldn't have considered submission to such as authoritive a publication as BVDAJ because I imagined it would have to be peer reviewed (although the FCV one was but by a feline specialist not a dental one) and minutely researched and referenced and I haven't got the time or the inclination to do either.[/quote]

Nice to hear that we are considered authoritative! I'd just like you to set out and develop the theories you've been outlining here. BVDAJ is a peer-reviewed journal but the degree of review depends on the type of article. Main Papers get the works and indeed are expected to be adequately (not necessarily minutely) researched and referenced. On the other hand, discussion articles, opinion pieces and the like are just checked through by the editor. That's the sort of thing I had in mind. I'd really like something from you.

Contact me in a "conversation" to discuss it.

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 28 Jun 2010 14:31:06 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

If we are going to be really really really pedantic we should point out that the true fauces are not all that commonly involved so it's not a faucitis.

You and I know what syndrome we are talking about, but when it's loosely referred to as "gingivitis" it just confuses those who don't deal with mouths so often, not to mention the general public.

I'm quite serious in asking you to write an article for BVDAJ.

[/quote]

I have to say in truth I never really know what the fauces is (or are) - is there a definitive anatomical definition as opposed to just the bit at the back of the mouth after the molars at the angle of the jaw between the palatine arches before you get to the oro-pharynx?!

I have written articles on recombinant feline interferon and calicivirus which both superficially covered pathogenesis and treatment of gingivo-stomatitis in the Vet Times. Quite frankly I wouldn't have considered submission to such as authoritive a publication as BVDAJ because I imagined it would have to be peer reviewed (although the FCV one was but by a feline specialist not a dental one) and minutely researched and referenced and I haven't got the time or the inclination to do either. I just want to share my experience and readers can have something to think about and agree or disagree however they see fit.

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 28 Jun 2010 12:13:14 GMT

If we are going to be really really really pedantic we should point out that the true fauces are not all that commonly involved so it's not a faucitis.

You and I know what syndrome we are talking about, but when it's loosely referred to as "gingivitis" it just confuses those who don't deal with mouths so often, not to mention the general public.

I'm quite serious in asking you to write an article for BVDAJ.

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 28 Jun 2010 10:21:57 GMT

If we're going to be really pedantic then should we not be referring to this disease as plasmocytic-lymphocytic-gingivo-stomatitis-faucitis PLGSF? What this tells us is that there is a major immune-mediated component. Depending on whose research you read there is a 16-40% variance in strain of FCV which does support the hypothesis that a different strain is involved in PLSGF and is further supported by the fact that it is not possible to induce classical FCV disease in immunologically naive cats by exposing them to swabs from cats with FCV associated PLSGF. This is not surprising as FCV is an RNA virus and such viruses are very prone to evolving. I need to correct a statement I made in a previous post: that chronically infected FCV are not true carriers. I should have said that not as many cats affected by FCV become carriers as those with FHV but they are more likely to be continous shedders rather than the typical intermittent picture seen with FHV. How much of a role FCV plays in this disease is questionable as undoubtedly severe gingivitis can be seen in cats which test -ve for FCV but these normally respond to dental propylaxis. It seems evident that it's not the virus alone in those where PLSGF is present and dental health, other oral infective and genetic components are significant.

Back on the theme of virus strains, it was clear that the strain involved in the outbreaks of virulent calici virus infections FCV-VSD was not protected against by vaccination, but then until the new vaccine variants started to come into use some researchers had shown up to 40% failure rate with vaccines based on F9 strain. Incidentally FCV-VSD seems to have gone quiet - has anyone seen an outbreak in the UK?

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Julian Earl — Sat, 26 Jun 2010 15:08:16 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I don't have proof, but am convinced the incidence of gingivitis (associated with Calici ) is higher in cats whose vaccination has lapsed, I've had several cases, tested them for FIV and they're negative, so it's not that. These cats haven't had clinical cat flu, so are they partly immune-sufficient immunity not to show overt disease, but not enough to totally throw off the virus, so it goes latent and causes gingivitis ?

Worth investigating ?

Wynne

[/quote]

Time for a bit of pedantry, but this is really important: Wynne and Martin are (I hope) referring to Feline Chronic Gingivo-Stomatitis (perhaps not a single disease but certainly a well-defined syndrome) and not to gingivitis.

Persistently detectable calicivirus is often associated with FCGS, (but not always). Whether it is directly causative, or what role it plays, still seems unclear to me.

[/quote]

Is it not true that caliciviral strains that cause flu do not cause FCGS and vice-versa? I have been led to believe that vaccination does not protect against the "oral" strains.

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Anthony Todd — Sat, 26 Jun 2010 15:02:26 GMT

"there is not much to give confidence that the vaccines are fully effective against all field strains. "

Amen to that. Fingers crossed on a lack of challenge then.

There may even be merit in alternating manufacturers when boosters are given in the hope of a broader spectrum of immunity.

I forgot to mention last time; in the only breakdown I had [where a number of alsation pups got, and some died, from parvo] the manufacturer compensated the owner for everything even though, fortunately, the second jab was at 12 weeks to the day.

Obviously, as the manufacturer paid out, I must have been at fault at least that's what the breeder thought........

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 26 Jun 2010 14:13:26 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Worth investigating ?

Wynne

[/quote]

Persistently detectable calicivirus is often associated with FCGS, (but not always). Whether it is directly causative, or what role it plays, still seems unclear to me.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]using recombinant feline interferon in the treatment of these cases but admit that in the end I've had little success in severe-chronic cases[/quote]

My experience too.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]However, I would urge you all to test your younger cats with persistant post eruption gingivitis for calicivirus because I am convinced that it you give oral interferon at this stage you can go a long way to preventing progression to the horrible intractible problem we see in so many of our older patients. I have only a small sample at the moment and I've only been doing this for 5 years so it will be a while before the cats get old enough to fully test the theory but my early results are promising.[/quote]

That's a very interesting hypothesis. Would you be able to write something about it at this stage,for BVDA Journal? We really like to publish such things. I appreciate the research is not finished, but why not outline and develop your theory and describe what you have found so far?

Are you a member of BVDA? You should be.

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 26 Jun 2010 11:17:47 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Worth investigating ?

Wynne

[/quote]

Another of my pet subjects I'm afraid. I'm not necesarily convinced that the incidence of calicivirus associated gingivo-stomatitis would increase with lapsed boosters as most cats which have this problem have become chronically infected (not sure true carrier status exists in terms of shedding but for the individual the result is the same). However we know that this condition is multi-factorial and it is probably therefore more age related and associated with an immune mediated component and chronic dental disease so its incidence will inevitably increase with age regardless of vaccine status. Regarding treatment, I have championed the cause of using recombinant feline interferon in the treatment of these cases but admit that in the end I've had little success in severe-chronic cases. However, I would urge you all to test your younger cats with persistant post eruption gingivitis for calicivirus because I am convinced that it you give oral interferon at this stage you can go a long way to preventing progression to the horrible intractible problem we see in so many of our older patients. I have only a small sample at the moment and I've only been doing this for 5 years so it will be a while before the cats get old enough to fully test the theory but my early results are promising. Meanwhile don't forget the importance of regular prophylactic dental treatment in these cases.

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 26 Jun 2010 10:56:49 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[This is the only [?] evidence of vaccine performance under field conditions, not the contrived serological evidence relied on for licence and hence Datasheet gospel...

Manufacturers provide evidence of efficiency for licence not for science. Have you ever seen manufacturers'evidence that a vaccine is ineffective after a certain period?

[/quote]

When I researched this subject 4 years ago most manufacturers used too small a sample to be statistically significant when testing their vaccines - in some cases less than 20. There are very few challenge studies on immunity to canine diseases and manufacturers use the ELISA test to measure antibody levels which, without going into too much technical data, has been shown by the Fratelli study to be far less sensitive than the HI test and will give misleading information on the level of immunity. Whats more, most HI tests for canine parvovirus used CPV2 strain but CPV2b is the most common in the field whilst CPV2c is becoming more prevelant and despite reassurances, there is not much to give confidence that the vaccines are fully effective against all field strains. As previously mentioned this information is based on research I did 4 years ago but there is still little to reasure me that the manufacturers are doing a lot other than hide behind data derived from dubious methods of testing their vaccines for the real world. I higlighted CPV in this post and my previous submissions to veterinary journals, and already voiced my reservations on a 10 week finish in this thread, but the problem is not confined to CPV alone - there is an issue across the board on canine diseases. And this is only applicable to dogs with current vacciabtion status. If we can't be confident that the vaccines are not fully effective when first administered what hope is there 3-4 years down the line? A few more people need to switch on to this problem.

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Amie Glaves — Sat, 26 Jun 2010 10:27:20 GMT

I had a 3yr old Springer in last week whose annual vaccs had lapsed so he had restarted the course but was 1 week late for his second vacc (6w rather than 5w). We had recommended restarting the course again so the poor dog was having 3 jabs.

I must admit I was tempted to say 2 jabs would probbaly be sufficient but as he didn't query it and the darta sheets state 3-5w for second vacc I dutifully jabbed the dog but I must admit it did seem a bit over the top.

I suppose we should be glad that the vaccines seem to have minimal side effects and that we can justify the annual charge as being for a good health check rather than anything. Until more research is carried out into how long antibody titres persists then our hands are tied.

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 26 Jun 2010 10:13:35 GMT

Agree with Simon, Colin, and Anthony

One case of FeLV is devastating for the poor cat , and it's owner. Same applies to distemper/parvo in dogs

Worth investigating ?

Wynne

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Anthony Todd — Sat, 26 Jun 2010 00:34:03 GMT

[quote user="Peter Ding"]I can't really see any relevance in data sheet back-up when disease in previously vaccinated dogs and cats is so incredibly rare (especially within 3 years of cessation of vaccination) in adults pets[/quote]

1. Er, look at the Finnish outbreak:

Veterinary Record, Vol 141, Issue 15, 380-383 Outbreak of canine distemper in vaccinated dogs in Finland C. Ek-Kommonen, L. Sihvonen, L. Nuotio, KPekkanen, and U. Rikula [http://tinyurl.com/y9q6k8d].

This is the only [?] evidence of vaccine performance under field conditions, not the contrived serological evidence relied on for licence and hence Datasheet gospel...

Manufacturers provide evidence of efficiency for licence not for science. Have you ever seen manufacturers'evidence that a vaccine is ineffective after a certain period?

What's to say that evidence of effectiveness at x years is not effective at x + 1 years??

Does the VMD do any challenge testing or just rely on manufacturers' submitted data?

2. Breakdowns maybe rare only because of lack of challenge, not vaccine efficiency. How many cases of rabies do we see in the UK or Australia?

3. A single breakdown in the whole world is seen as an incidence of 100% by the owner; try telling the owner it's rare!

4. The antivaccinationists base their case on a lack of challenge, not immunity.

5.True vaccine reactions are rare and are mainly local. Geez, how would it be if dogs had a human type cholera local reaction!! Agony and feel rotten, and it's around 50% effective anyway! Sure, anaphylaxis and allergy occur so should we not vaccinate at all?

6. Is there any real evidence against too much vaccination?

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Colin Cameron — Thu, 24 Jun 2010 09:16:13 GMT

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]I see no conflict in putting the animal's interests foremost, doing a good job and earning a reasonable living.[/quote]

I absolutely agree.

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Simon Neuhoff — Wed, 23 Jun 2010 14:19:27 GMT

[quote user="Colin Cameron"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]But who's going to admit to giving annual vaccinations because it boosts their bottom line[/quote]

If you want to be a complete cynic you could say that everything we do is to boost our bottom line! It all depends on your rationale behind what you do. That depends on personal and professional integrity. We in this practice still have the animals welfare foremost in our minds. I sincerely hope we are in the majority and not unique!

[/quote]

Well, exactly. Veterinary practice is a business as well as a vocation - if we don't make a profit we would cease to exist. I feel no shame at charging for my services and I am quite satisfied with my integrity - I see no conflict in putting the animal's interests foremost, doing a good job and earning a reasonable living.

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Colin Cameron — Wed, 23 Jun 2010 14:00:54 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]But who's going to admit to giving annual vaccinations because it boosts their bottom line[/quote]

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Bob Russell — Wed, 23 Jun 2010 13:18:25 GMT

I was in Isis house at school and Iris is my ex-mother in law - no wonder I am confused!

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Simon Neuhoff — Wed, 23 Jun 2010 13:05:39 GMT

I vaacinate my own cats exactly as I do all the client's cats I see - acc to the vaccine data sheet.[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Nixthevet"]

i'm a hypocrit and advise datasheet for owners, but only boost my own ( who are all indoor cats) every 2-3 yrs

[/quote]

As you may have guessed I'm playing devils advocate with this but I suspect that your answer is the one everyone would give if they were honest Nix. But who's going to admit to giving annual vaccinations because it boosts their bottom line knowing they're not necessary but use the manufacturer's data sheet recommendations as an excuse??? I'm not more or less guilty on this one.

[/quote]

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Colin Cameron — Sat, 19 Jun 2010 12:59:49 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

What about Nobivac Ducat with Tricat every 3 years?

[/quote]

Now Merial , so which ones will be retained?

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Ian Ross — Sat, 19 Jun 2010 12:33:56 GMT

[quote user="i am ed"]

I tend to advise a second L, simply because that seems to be in line with the datasheet, but ultimately I let the client make an informed choice (or at least, a decision that is as uninformed as anyone's

[/quote]

This is what I recommend aswell, and is our practice policy.

Sorrry to be provocative!

Ian

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 19 Jun 2010 11:50:45 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[I have seen both parvo and lepto in lapsed vaccinated dogs. In a rural area doing only a small amount of small animal work.

[/quote]

I used only the ABCD guidlines on cats when I started this thread because I knew them off the top of my head whereas I'd have to look up the guidlines on dog vaccination and was too lazy to do so. However it's not just un-vaccinated dogs or those with lapsed vaccines that are susceptible to these diseases. I hope this will open the Pandora's box on early finishing of dog vaccines that I've been banging on about for the last 3-4 years: that there are a significant number of failures in vaccinated dogs of all breeds, not just black and tans, which have finished primary vaccination courses at 10 weeks, and that vaccine companies are aware that there is up to a 20% failure rate with this protocol but hide behind the catch-all in the data sheets that a small number of individuals may fail to respond for a variety of reasons. It's not far short of a conspiracy.

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Peter Ding — Sat, 19 Jun 2010 10:13:31 GMT

I specifically didn't indicate Leptospirosis for exactly the reason you indicate, Michael. that is indeed the reason ABCD indicates annual boosters are required.

Parvovirus i could be surprised with......

Which parvo virus vaccine was involved? Was it from the days when there was only one effective vaccine. Was it carried out by vets in your practice? What breed of dog?

What sort of virus challenge was involved for the dog to succumb.

How long between vaccination and disease? Less than 3 years?

Was it confirmed virulogically? We've probably all seen occasional fatal HGE's mymic Parvo.

I've seen two suspicious cases but we were unable to prove it was Parvo, Both from the days when we blood sampled all puppies at 16 weeks to confirm a vaccination titre. When occasional dogs appeared not to respond to the less effective vaccines back then.

Evelyn aren't you really just misinterpreting what constitutes "high risk"? To me that means either lots of contact with non-vaccinated possibly infected animals (high infective load) OR very occasional access to outside ( no natural boosting)!

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Laurence Webb — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 23:19:47 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"] ...are you saying...[/quote]

I just paraphrased the ABCD advice, so don't expect any guidance from me! I have no discernable insight into immunology and yes, I can see a logic to your interpretation. I'll stick to the datasheet as it seems safer fro me and doesn't make my brain ache..

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 20:08:21 GMT

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]FeLV primary vaccination at 8-9 weeks then again at 12 weeks. There is no evidence of immunity lasting over a year although as older cats are less susceptible then in cats over 3-4 years then a booster every 2-3 years should be sufficient.[/quote]

I don't quite follow that. Wouldn't it be more logical to say that cats over 4 years don't need boosters?

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]Boosters can be every 3 years in low risk situations (mainly indoor with little or no contact with other cats). In high risk situations vaccination should be annual.[/quote]

That's a principle I've never really understood (and I admit there are plenty of things I've never understood). It always seems the wrong way round.In a high risk situation, isn't the chance of natural boosting very high, so that booster vaccination is unnecessary? And in the low risk situation, are you saying that we know the immunity will wane, but it's a low risk so the gamble is a good one? Wouldn't it be equally logical to suggest that the risk is low, so no immunisation is necessary at all? Or to say that natural boosting is most unlikely, so annual boosters are necessary?

Re: Duration between cat vaccination boosters

Rob Loxley — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 18:19:25 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]how many of you who follow the ISIS guidlines so religiously[/quote]

Well Isis was a goddess, as opposed to the IRIS guidelines