Broken leg puppy, o no money

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

sophia guymer — Tue, 06 Jul 2010 19:52:44 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] not Royal College[/quote]

No, not at all, my collegue who is now dealing with the pup and owner (as I am only there mon and fri am). He is due back in this week, so should find out fri if he did show up or not. If not, I will probably have to cause a bit of a stir and get the RSPCA involved anyway.

Then again, never know, people never cease to amaze me, so the bloke may have been shaken up enough to actually look after it properlly now.

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 10:46:43 GMT

Sophia

Who told you not to get the RSPCA involved ?

I sincerely hope not Royal College-else if the poor pup is ill-treated again, they could be charged with bringing the profession into disrepute-now THAT would be an interesting DC case

Wynne

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

sophia guymer — Sat, 03 Jul 2010 19:18:55 GMT

The pup has gone back to his 'rightful' owner! And I have sort of been told not to get the RSPCA involved in checking up on the after care (cage etc) [:'(] Can only hope the owner has enough sense in there somewhere to care for the little lad. He did pay half the bill in the end, so may be I have been too hard on him ?? I hope so.

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

sophia guymer — Mon, 21 Jun 2010 21:51:36 GMT

[quote user="i am ed"] willing to take steps to prevent this[/quote]

Willing, yes, able, no not really as only part timer and not really my patient anymore.

[quote user="i am ed"]Do you think it's necessary?[/quote]

I honestly don't know. I think the little one could have such a better life with someone with less of a temper, more money etc, but hey, is it really my place to decide that, no not really I would say! Would he do it again? I can only hope not. I suppose if he puts up so much of a fight to keep the pup you would expect him to take better care of it?

[quote user="i am ed"]could reasonably allow you to certify this.[/quote]

Will keep it in mind though!

[quote user="i am ed"]The act can be downloaded at [/quote] thanks, may use that when it comes to it. For now, the pup is still with us.

They said they were gonna pay half friday and claim the rest from the pdsa but again, they didn't turn up with any money.

[quote user="i am ed"]How's the puppy doing? The fracture has probably mostly healed by now, hasn't it?! [/quote]

It doesn't seem to be as painfull but is not weightbaring yet.

Thanks for your help!!

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

Edward Jones — Mon, 21 Jun 2010 13:23:03 GMT

If the owner continues to want to have the dog back are you willing to take steps to prevent this? Do you think it's necessary?

An animal can be seized by the Police under the animal welfare act 2006 if a vet certifies that "it is likely to suffer if its circumstances do not change" (Section 18, paragraph 5). An owner reporting that they have handled it roughly several times before it eventually got a broken leg could reasonably allow you to certify this.

It would then require a magistrate to allow the dog to be given to a charity (Section 20, paragraph 1). And that's all I know about that! The act can be downloaded at http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/pdf/ukpga_20060045_en.pdf

It's not a nice situation for you to be in. If the RSPCA start to cooperate a bit more you could easily paint them as the 'bad guy' in the client's eyes, with something like "it's out of my hands". I'd be willing to bet that if the Police got involved they'd be itching to seize the dog for you (nothing like a puppy-beater to get their hackles up!)

How's the puppy doing? The fracture has probably mostly healed by now, hasn't it?!

PS. I think Patrick Marshall's tone was mistaken rather than intentional

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

sophia guymer — Sat, 19 Jun 2010 18:58:51 GMT

[quote user="PATRICK MARSHALL"]Rest is a perfectly acceptable option in this situtation. Finding that out required about 1 minute of looking in the appropriate widely available text book. - although it was nice to have that confirmed by a specialist in orthopaedics. Evidence based medicine at its most basic.[/quote]

All I can say to that is: 1. I am glad not everyone reacts like you do or I would think twice about asking for opinions or advice in the future! and

2. It was not my idea to send the xrays to the referral vets but my very experienced boss who her self does do quite a bit of orthopedic surgery so it can't have been that straight forward.

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

PATRICK MARSHALL — Sat, 19 Jun 2010 13:56:53 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

This thread has strayed somewhat from the intention of the OP which was not a request for advice on surgical technique but for guidance on dealing with a potential bad debt and its incumbant comblications.

[/quote]

Actually it had not "strayed" at all.

Rule 1 in this type of situation is to get the veterinary side and advice correct. Rest is a perfectly acceptable option in this situtation. Finding that out required about 1 minute of looking in the appropriate widely available text book. - although it was nice to have that confirmed by a specialist in orthopaedics. Evidence based medicine at its most basic.

Feel free to become an amateur social worker, debt collector or whatever you will thereafter - but be a professional veterinary surgeon first.

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

Colin Cameron — Sat, 19 Jun 2010 13:36:26 GMT

It's the old MIA again. Sometimes a marvellous treatment plan! And really cheap as well!!

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 16:41:51 GMT

It is surprising what will heal with cage rest and pain relief.

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

sophia guymer — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 14:53:15 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"], I would suggest you leave it alone[/quote]

Thanks Malcolm, that is what we will do then.

Sophia

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

sophia guymer — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 14:52:18 GMT

[quote user="i am ed"]

Just to add my 2p worth to the fray... (probably not even worth that).

My experience with the RSPCA leads me to believe that it's quite straightforward to seize an animal from an owner if certain conditions surrounding the animal's welfare are met (which is generally quite easy to meet). Only the Police can legally seize the animal, but they will usually do this under instruction of an RSPCA officer (for example).

The RSPCA don't necessarily have to follow up with a prosecution after a seizure has taken place, do they? I think the advice to speak to the RSPCA inspector's superior is good advice, plus speak to the Police - in my experience they tend to be very willing to act in potential cases of cruelty (generally need holding back!).

I'd be very unwilling to let the dog go back into the environment where this injury occurred. Sorry if I'm getting the wrong end of the stick!

[/quote]Thanks Ed, no not wrong end of the stick.

Will see what I can do, depending on what ends up happening with the pup. the owner showed up again today, after a week of nothing. reckons he is gonna pay tonight now, well half, he had a pdsa form so he is hoping they will pay the rest. I can only hope he is not gonna show up again, but it is starting to look unlikely that they are gonna give the poor sod up. They only had it 2 weeks! by monday it will have been in our kennels for that long!

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

Edward Jones — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:34:09 GMT

Just to add my 2p worth to the fray... (probably not even worth that).

My experience with the RSPCA leads me to believe that it's quite straightforward to seize an animal from an owner if certain conditions surrounding the animal's welfare are met (which is generally quite easy to do). Only the Police can legally seize the animal, but they will usually do this under instruction of an RSPCA officer (for example).

I'd be very unwilling to let the dog go back into the environment where this injury occurred. Sorry if I'm getting the wrong end of the stick!

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 17 Jun 2010 18:09:37 GMT

[quote user="sophia guymer"]Would there be any point in surgery now anymore? Been 9days now. My boss thinks not and by the sounds of what you said she is right[/quote]

Surgery at this late stage might improve the outcome but is just as likely to make matters a whole lot worse - it certainly wouldn't be straight forward. Given the "politics" of the situation, I would suggest you leave it alone, that way you avoid the situation of things getting worse AND you getting the blame.

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

sophia guymer — Wed, 16 Jun 2010 20:42:40 GMT

][quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[/quote] You are absolutely right!! I was sort of feeling a little bit bombarded and feeling like we might have neglected the poor little thing in the proces but after reading Malcolms post I feel better (sort of)

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I have the misfortune to have (to remain politically correct) a large Irish Traveller community nearby. [/quote]

Ditto, which is I suppose why we are so hard on this bloke.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]pay up front or bugger off.[/quote]

That is what my boss has adviced us to do now, should have given him the pup home until he could have paid, not even taken the xrays. I understand, to a degree agree but I just couldn't do that to the poor little thing!

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]sometimes we have to make hard choices[/quote] Don't we just, Thank you Martin, that was exactly the kind of answer I was after from the start! Not pleasant but the real world.

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

sophia guymer — Wed, 16 Jun 2010 20:33:45 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]Consequently, I would go for well executed surgery as plan A but conservatism (passage of time and medical pain control) as an acceptable plan B given the specifics of the case described above. In the unlikely event that things do go bad following conservatism, then that is the time to consider amputation o[/quote]

Thank you Malcolm. It is true I was only after hearing what other people would do in this situation, meaning the client having caused the problem himself and no money etc, but now we are on the subject of the treatement. Would there be any point in surgery now anymore? Been 9days now. My boss thinks not and by the sounds of what you said she is right? I thought it would at least give more stability and shorten the length of the rest period?

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

sophia guymer — Wed, 16 Jun 2010 20:27:21 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]If that is the case then why is it not a reasonable treatment option to advise cage rest and discharge the animal to home? If its still in one piece in a puppy of that age in 2 weeks it will heal.[/quote]

Yes, I agree to a certain degree and would do if the only problem was the one of the money. I am not sure if the two week time frame is correct but when we send the xrays away the referral vet did mention rest as an option though it not being ideal and that we would have to warn the owners that osteoarthritis would be inevitable if nothing was done.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]This is the line of least resistance and one which it would appear to me is perfectly acceptable [/quote]

We would even consider it if the o would actually turn up! We have not seen him since fri evening when again he promised to pay the next day. Then citizens advice rang and then nothing.

I don't suppose the pup will be operated on now, we are just hoping now the o will not contact us for a wk, then we can send him a recorded letter saying we are taking it as the puppy being signed over unless he pays up within ...

It is all getting bit out of hand, I agree, I was actually only after other peoples protocols as we were already in an impossible situation by then.

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:23:33 GMT

I have the misfortune to have (to remain politically correct) a large Irish Traveller community nearby. Although barely literate these people are extremely savvy when it comes to avoiding paying their vets bills but almost without exception, when given no choice but to pay up, they have wads of cash. The sad fact is that if I showed any sign of weakness I would be seen as a soft touch and preyed on by them, and have the scenario from the OP virtually every day. I'm afraid I've become very cynical and paranoid over this and the rule is simple: pay up front or bugger off. To strictly observe my obligation to follow the RCVS guidance on this would leave me the laughing stock and broke! Admittedly most of these people, despite being cash rich, have milked the welfare system so they are in receipt of benefits that qualify them to go to the RSPCA hospital which lets me off the hook somewhat, but in most cases they have no intention of either paying or travelling to that hospital. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not callous and have probably treated as many injured waifs and strays and wildlife casualities FOC as anyone but sometimes we have to make hard choices.

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

PATRICK MARSHALL — Wed, 16 Jun 2010 07:02:27 GMT

Thank you Malcolm, that is exactly my experience (3 or 4 cases in the past 25 years).

In 1 case where a malunion developed (suboptimal surgery!) and the fragment was fairly small I ended up removing it entirely and the 5 YO labrador became mircaulously sound 7 days later.

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

Malcolm Ness — Tue, 15 Jun 2010 22:28:46 GMT

Just seen this thread - busy day at work followed by the kind of evening that demanded to be spent outdoors.

Lateral condylar fractures are not uncommon and the ideal treatment is open reduction to allow perfect reduction prior to rigid fixation - usually a transcondylar lag screw and a seconed screw or thin wire. Perfect anatomical reduction and rigid internal fixation enough to allow early (day 1) weight bearing are essential if a good functional result is to be seen.

Surgery is conceptually simple but technically demanding especially in such a young patient.

Some of these fracture go undiagnosed and many more enjoy sub-optimal surgical treatment. It is rare for such fractures not to heal no matter how they are treated or neglected and though the malunions look ugly on X ray, the malunion is usually remarkably well tolerated by the patient. Consequently, I would go for well executed surgery as plan A but conservatism (passage of time and medical pain control) as an acceptable plan B given the specifics of the case described above. In the unlikely event that things do go bad following conservatism, then that is the time to consider amputation or euthanasia.

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

PATRICK MARSHALL — Tue, 15 Jun 2010 19:29:54 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]This thread is getting a bit out of hand now but you did say at one point Sophie that the fracture was stable[/quote]

A brief reading of the BSAVA Manual of Fracture Treatment suggests that for an epicondylar fracture(medial or lateral) in a young puppy although surgical correction is ideal conservative treatment is often very successful.

I am sorry that Malcolm Ness has not yet entered the fray so that the appropriate treatment options can be discuss by someone with significant orthopaedic experience

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

sophia guymer — Tue, 15 Jun 2010 19:20:52 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Suppose the bloke came up with money right at the start? You would presumably do the surgery and give the dog back to him[/quote]

reluctantly but yes we would have done, still will if he pays.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Suppose the injury was a genuine unfortunate accident but the bloke said right from the start he would not pay? [/quote]

I would have probably pressed for pts. regretfully unless he would have been willing to sign over. We did the same with a young cat not so long ago, I am affraid it happens rather a lot here, no money issue. We can't treat all of them for free, so yes we do put some to sleep purely on financial grounds.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]". I note that the female was keen to do this. If she does, it doesn't matter legally what the male "partner" thinks[/quote]

The animal is in his name, they are not married and she is not named on the system at all. He at some point gave her the option to decide and she refused. I think she is affraid of what he might do out of our sight.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]What stopped her? Is she scared of what her "partner" will do to her? This could be a serious consideration: are you prepared to risk him beating her up? I've never understood why women stay shacked up with druggie wasters and/or violent bastards, but they do.[/quote] was reading it step by step, so yes I do think she is affraid of that, and no I didn't want that which is why I didn't put pressure on her at all. He was on something I am sure, when he came in first time, pinpoint pupils and kept repeating himself. [quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

There's not much to lose now by explaining firmly to the male why you don't think he should have a dog. You might point out that if he doesn't get the dog back, he could always go to the police and lay a complaint of theft: but then what he did to the dog would also come to the notice of the police............

[/quote]

That actually might be a good point!! I think that might worry him, he came out of court the day he came in first! not sure why but receptionist heard them talking about it. dodgy bloke.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]But who would sign the consent for the surgery?[/quote]Technically we have that of the bloke.

I phoned work today, turned out citizens advice had rung!! the owner had gone to see them as we apparently wouldn't give him his dog unless he paid 200 pound so he wanted to know what to do. We had actually not got to that yet as we were still talking about tx with him. Not quite sure what the end of that was as was all bit of a hurry on phone. think citizens adv didn't know the whole story and were not too worried to accomodate the owner after hearing the story.

Will keep you informed.

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 15 Jun 2010 13:26:49 GMT

This thread is getting a bit out of hand now but you did say at one point Sophie that the fracture was stable. If that is the case then why is it not a reasonable treatment option to advise cage rest and discharge the animal to home? If its still in one piece in a puppy of that age in 2 weeks it will heal. In any case there is no ethical responsibility to get this animal 100% sound merely to prevent pain and suffering. This is the line of least resistance and one which it would appear to me is perfectly acceptable Any other course of action then depends on your conscience and compassion and is largely irrelevant, at least it is no longer your problem. Incidentally I would have no hesitation in withholding a patient in lieu of payment from the point of view of legal or ethical repercussions, I just wouldn't necessarily want to be lumbered with the pup and no payment!

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 15 Jun 2010 13:11:48 GMT

In general - not this particular case only - you are perfectly entitled, legally, to hold on to an animal until the agreed fee is paid. The reasons why it is generally considered a really bad idea are: a) you are landed with the hassle and expense of keeping the animal boarding; b)it could be argued it is not good for the animal's welfare; and c) it kind of looks bad, especially if it gets into the local rag ("heartless vets held my Binky hostage").

In this case, it would seem that b and c do not apply.

There are really two separate questions troubling Sophia and her boss. One is: how am I going to get paid if I mend this puppy? The second is: how do I avoid letting this horrible bloke have a puppy? These questions just happen to be both involved in this particular case.

Suppose the bloke came up with money right at the start? You would presumably do the surgery and give the dog back to him. Or would you? You need to decide.

Suppose the injury was a genuine unfortunate accident but the bloke said right from the start he would not pay? What would you do then? List your objections to doing the same in this case.

Obviously a great outcome would be if the puppy was "signed over". I note that the female was keen to do this. If she does, it doesn't matter legally what the male "partner" thinks. What stopped her? Is she scared of what her "partner" will do to her? This could be a serious consideration: are you prepared to risk him beating her up? I've never understood why women stay shacked up with druggie wasters and/or violent bastards, but they do.

[quote user="Peter Ding"]In one sense yes it is correct Hannah, but by retaining the puppy for cage rest for a week or two post op., (which sounds like it is pretty essential anyway) would give you plenty of time to persuade the owners to do the right thing and pre-emptively explain your welfare driven actions to the registrar.[/quote]

That would be an excellent suggestion; there's nothing like time to improve situations. But who would sign the consent for the surgery?

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

Peter Ding — Tue, 15 Jun 2010 12:55:56 GMT

I wouldn't be afraid of a court appearance in those circumstances, provided the dog's welfare is your prime concern and you take appropriate action to give it the right treatment promptly. How could he possibly have enough money to sue you?

Re: Broken leg puppy, o no money

sophia guymer — Tue, 15 Jun 2010 12:34:32 GMT

[quote user="Peter Ding"]

Is there any real likelihood they would take you to court?

[/quote]

yes I think so. [quote user="Peter Ding"]

Who has delayed doing the op, the owners, your good self or your boss?

[/quote]

All three I suppose, the owner is under the understanding we won't operate until paid upfront, we have said that from the start.

Me, as I thing (thought) we would lose any level we had to keep the pup and

My boss, as VDS clearly told us we shouldn't hold the pup hostage and as we are part of a much larger firm, it is not her money she would choose to spend.

You may be please to hear it is pretty much all out of my hands anyway. I won't be back till fri so by then it may all be done and dusted. Will prob given them a ring later anyway to get update.