Export of elderly cat

Re: Export of elderly cat

Tim Cheyne — Tue, 06 Jul 2010 18:10:44 GMT

That's a pity, it would have been nice to know the outcome but thanks for taking the trouble to reply.

Tim.

Re: Export of elderly cat

Rob Davis — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 09:12:38 GMT

Unfortunately it has disappeared into the wide, blue yonder. The phone number the owner gave us doesn't work, and I suspect I will never know whether or not it has gone.

Re: Export of elderly cat

Tim Cheyne — Sun, 04 Jul 2010 18:54:34 GMT

Was any more heard of this cat or did it just disappear into the wide, blue yonder?

Tim.

Re: Export of elderly cat

Tim Cheyne — Fri, 25 Jun 2010 18:14:59 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

.........a possible stressful death in transit.........

[/quote]

In an elderly cat death is always just around the corner but in my experience the transit is unlikely to be stressful.......... however a day or so ago I put this problem to my two Bangladeshi staff. "Why?" was the puzzled enquiry, then, fixing their stares on our 14 y.o spayed female that had just seen off a predatory tom twice her size, they said firmly "Well, if anything happens to you, 'Spotty' is definitely going home with us!" It seems that my 'Fitness to Travel' might be in some doubt but not that of 'Spotty'.

Tim.

Re: Export of elderly cat

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 25 Jun 2010 13:11:24 GMT

Good point Gillian Ethics questions can be tricky-but I think a PTS (if no-one reliable prepared to re-home ) is probably better for the cat than a possible stressful death in transit.

I'm with Peter on this one-we have to be honest brokers, and say if our professional opinion is contrary to the client's wishes

Wynne

Re: Export of elderly cat

Peter Ding — Fri, 25 Jun 2010 11:38:03 GMT

Quite, it all depends on the wording you are required to certify and just how frail/ill the pet is. Only those that examine it can give an opinion.

In my experience there is absolutely no problem if another colleague thinks it is fit to travel, providing you assist the owners in every way you can to obtain it, couch your opinion with a detailed explanation to ensure they think just as highly of you should that be the case. One might then reflect on the positioning of one's line in the sand, but you are there as an honest broker, and shouldn't just certify it because someone else always will...

I remember my wife getting quite stressed about a Maine Coone, offspring of a Supreme Champion, being exported to Australia. We all know how much that costs and how much cancelling such a booking might cost.

The 6 month old cat appeared completely healthy but it had a temperature of 103. NOAD. It was also summer!

She declined to certify it. Export was delayed.

Nothing on bloods, nothing on a reasonable examination, no other symptoms. A short course of broad spectrums/nsaids did nothing, so she had a long chat with the breeder who took our advice seriously. Three days later the cat had a fit and developed nystagmus and a head tilt. More extensive neurologically focussed examination revealed a deep ear polyp we had missed. The cat had MED, probably secondary to the polyp which had penetrated the drum.

The breeder was incredibly grateful we hadn't ruined their reputation.

Keep being an honest broker.

Re: Export of elderly cat

Tim Cheyne — Fri, 25 Jun 2010 10:27:58 GMT

Yes, Peter, I can understand your BSE analogy having been in similar situations myself (mostly overseas) but I am not convinced that this case is the same. However, it will be interesting to hear how this one turns out, if we do.

Tim.

Re: Export of elderly cat

Peter Ding — Fri, 25 Jun 2010 07:27:01 GMT

[quote user="Tim Cheyne"]Unlikely to arise, Gillian. If only 'no clinical evidence of infectious disease' is required and one vet will not sign he will just look around for another; which, perhaps, he has done already.[/quote]

Interestingly some vets use the same line of argument in carrying out cosmetic procedures on show animals. I gather some first opinion vets even refer such cases to a specialist and then each relies on the other to inform the kennel club. A clever derogation of responsibility. "We are not policemen etc"
That's why it carries on....

More critically i also remember the days when BSE first arose. I was actually in charge at the first abattoir in the country to reject a BSE carcase because we simply didn't know if the meat was fit.
Based on the potential catch -all of "any condition which, in the opinion of the inspector might render the carcase unfit for human consumption"
The Authotiies put tremendous pressure on us to sign it as fit, and following our (and another vet's) principled stand, for a period they sent out those ministry vets who were still willing to sign carcases off to various abattoirs around the country to certify them as fit for human consumption. Those at the ministry who were unwilling to take a gamble were given other duties., However within months, as the first human cases arose, all carcases were being treated as they should have been from the start.

i.e. IMHO if you are certifying an animal as, in your opinion, fit to travel by the means and route indicated you should honestly believe that. It is not a statement one should ignore.
If you don't, explain why to the owner, assist the owner to get a second opinion, and if that opinion agrees, everyone can then make the right choice.

It would only need one case of a pet dying in transit (whilst certified by a vet as fit to travel) to hit the media headlines for it to be very embarrassing indeed.

Re: Export of elderly cat

Tim Cheyne — Fri, 25 Jun 2010 05:25:55 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Do you worry about what will happen to this elderly cat if she isn't able to be taken abroad with her devoted owner?

[/quote]

Unlikely to arise, Gillian. If only 'no clinical evidence of infectious disease' is required and one vet will not sign he will just look around for another; which, perhaps, he has done already.

Tim.

Re: Export of elderly cat

Tim Cheyne — Thu, 24 Jun 2010 20:44:14 GMT

Never having signed or knowingly met a 'fit to travel' certificate I am rather at a loss to comment although I have signed many certificates of health for import to various countries. As you say, these sometimes require evidence of recent worming, vaccination and specific blood tests but, outside the Passports for Pets areas, most often these do not for small animals, simply 'no clinical evidence of infectious disease'.. Equids and ruminants are a different matter.

Who or what is requesting this certificate; UK for export; the airline to avoid possible litigation; an insurance company; or the importing country? Much depends on the wording of the certificate that you are being asked to sign. Is it detailed and specific or can you write your own? If a blood test is not mandatory I see no reason to stress the animal by taking one (although you are probably much more skilled at extracting blood from cats than I am; larger species are my forte).

Tim.

Re: Export of elderly cat

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 24 Jun 2010 20:12:11 GMT

Do you worry about what will happen to this elderly cat if she isn't able to be taken abroad with her devoted owner?

Re: Export of elderly cat

Kate Richardson — Thu, 24 Jun 2010 14:12:14 GMT

I wouldn't Wynne unless I was totally happy to do so. I like to sleep at night

Re: Export of elderly cat

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 24 Jun 2010 13:59:40 GMT

Well done Peter, and Kate-don't sign unless you think the animal is fit to travel

Wynne

Re: Export of elderly cat

Kate Richardson — Thu, 24 Jun 2010 13:16:14 GMT

Good to know. I think I may have a bit guilty of pre-judging somewhere I actually know very little about, so I apologise for that, and its good to know that animals are cared for as well as possible in different regions of the world.

But the question is really about the certification of being fit to travel. Its interesting several people have said that the 'fit for travel' certification is more about a declaration of abscense of infectious disease- why then is it called a 'fit for travel' certificate. This implys that the animal is heathy enough to endure a journey without suffering any problems and that would be up to each individual vet to decide if they thought the animal was or not. I would have thought that a current up to date vaccination certificate, proof of recent treatment vs parasites etc. plus proof of blood tests such as serology as required for each individaul importing country was more concrete evidence of being free from infectious disease than a clinical examination unless there were really obvious clinical signs in which case one would expect the animal to perhaps be unwell (and therefore probably not fit to travel)

Any thoughts?

Re: Export of elderly cat

Tim Cheyne — Sat, 19 Jun 2010 18:34:54 GMT

Having worked in Bangladesh and also over the years handled various species (horses, cattle, cats, dogs, guinea pigs, rabbits and mice) travelling by air, I feel that there are a number of misconceptions in this thread. Bear in mind that the health certificate is really an import certificate for the receiving country, to reassure the airline that the animal can be offloaded in the same way that the airline insists on passengers having valid visas or equivalent before allowing them to board. This might require blood tests for certain specific diseases but more usually is a simple declaration of no clinical evidence of infectious disease plus perhaps confirmation of in-date vaccinations.

The weather in Bangladesh is seasonal; it can be hot, it can be hot and humid, it can also be quite cold. In seven years of driving a landrover throughout the country I never had airconditioning in the vehicle (something that I could not do without in the Gulf) but efficient windscreen wipers were essential! If this man has been working in UK it is quite possible that he comes from Sylhet, a pleasant region where the tea is grown and which is regarded as wealthy because nearly every family has someone sending money home from abroad. He might well afford airconditioners, and the generator to run them, but more likely he finds fans adequate, as do most people.

In my experience, animals are very phlegmatic travellers and arrive far less stressed than their human owners. IATA regulations are strict but the major airlines go beyond them to handle the animals very sympathetically; often loaded before all the hustle and bustle and noise; away from possibly noxious cargoes (including other animals that might be regarded as predators); in heated pressurised holds that are closely monitored in flight.

Bangladeshis, especially those from the rural areas, are very fond of their animals. If this man is so fond of his that he is prepared to bear the cost of transporting his pet back home (including vet's fees!) then try to help him. I would.

Tim..

Re: Export of elderly cat

Rob Davis — Thu, 17 Jun 2010 17:19:58 GMT

The owner failed to turn up for his appointment today, and both the phone numbers he gave us are unobtainable, so I suspect either he has decided not to go through with the export, or is going to get somebody else to do the certification. I will give an update if he ever turns up again!

Re: Export of elderly cat

Rob Davis — Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:17:22 GMT

Thanks for all the replies. The cat is due to come back to see me tomorrow, and I will discuss things further with the owner then. I'll keep you updated with progress...

Re: Export of elderly cat

Peter Ding — Tue, 15 Jun 2010 18:42:16 GMT

I would say transporting an animal in an aircraft hold for several hours together with all the attendant handling and movement is a considerable stress for any pet.

A safety first approach would suggest that it is unwise to subject any FeLV or FIv positive cat to such a stress.

I think that it is entirely up to the vet to express their opinion. If they suspect the animal in question is unfit to travel they cannot sign the form. An owner declining blood tests does not excuse this imho. You are stating it is fit to travel, not that you have doubts and would really like to look into it further. If you are happy sign it, if not don't.

Health is only one consideration, infirmity is another. i declined to sign such a document once in the case of a very aged dog (which was very frail indeed) being exported to the middle east, as i could not say it was fit to travel. After helping the owner to see another vet ( who also agreed it was unfit) they changed their minds and left the dog with relatives.That isn't 'acting god', it's just expressing an opinion.

Re: Export of elderly cat

Vikki Halliday LLB — Tue, 15 Jun 2010 12:54:23 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]The oath we all took on graduating was "My constant endevour will be to ensure the WELFARE of animals committed to my care [/quote]

It's not being committed to your care though. If that was the case we would never allow any exports in case something happened en route to compromise the welfare.

We are not the welfare police. We are being asked to undertake certification. If you are more comfortable refusing to sign, then you have to explain that to the client, however you are merely signing the EHC, not a guarantee that the cat will be free of all sub-clinical disease.

Re: Export of elderly cat

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 15 Jun 2010 11:09:11 GMT

But there are soooo many times when our own opinion about what is best for an animal is different to what the owner wants or is able to provide. It is our job to advise, not to police.

Re: Export of elderly cat

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 15 Jun 2010 11:05:45 GMT

I'm with Kate-wouldn't be comfortable signing, so would not sign

The oath we all took on graduating was "My constant endevour will be to ensure the WELFARE of animals committed to my care " As I see it, this forces us to act as the animal's police when owners want to do something which is not in their animals true interest

Vikki We all know our woolly-minded MPs (bless them and their expense accounts ) put in a requirement for exported animals to be veterinary certified as fit to travel, so as to look good with the public. The veterinary profession then sided with the exporters, so a whole lorry-load is certified en masse. This doesn't make it right If I was doing it, I would have every individual sheep off the lorry, and given a full clinical examination-and, if that meant the exporter would run out of time, and have to pay an extra night in lairage, then TOUGH

Wynne

Re: Export of elderly cat

Gareth Dowdeswell — Tue, 15 Jun 2010 09:57:21 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]but I feel in a cat that age I would want basic blood work including T4 and felv/fiv to be able to state it is fit to travel[/quote]

Can't quite see how FIV/FeLV status would affect fitness to travel, if everything else is ok?

[/quote]

Perhaps from a control of infectious disease point of view, rather than fitness to travel? Don't know the precise requirements of Bangladesh tho, can't imagine they're very strict on cats carrying non-zoonotic disease.

Re: Export of elderly cat

Kate Richardson — Tue, 15 Jun 2010 09:51:31 GMT

Well then I guess it comes down to what each of us as an individual decides is 'clinically healthy' and what we are comfortable putting our signature to.

Re: Export of elderly cat

Rob Loxley — Mon, 14 Jun 2010 22:34:30 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]but I feel in a cat that age I would want basic blood work including T4 and felv/fiv to be able to state it is fit to travel[/quote]

Can't quite see how FIV/FeLV status would affect fitness to travel, if everything else is ok?

Re: Export of elderly cat

Vikki Halliday LLB — Mon, 14 Jun 2010 22:27:42 GMT

I used to be a full time DEFRA vet, and the purpose of an EHC is merely to ensure the animal is not suffering from any disease which could be infectious in the new country, and that it is broadly fit to transport, however it is not your responsibility to ensure it is fit to transport, that responsibility rests with the owner/keeper.

Maybe that will help you with your decision. If in doubt contact the local Animal Health Office.