WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

ruths — Tue, 25 May 2010 23:23:12 GMT

I mean I did admit a dog, i think he has parvo.

Did you go to the intervet meeting?

was it useful?

i was thinking of going but never organised time off etc...

Are the notes comprehensive?

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

ruths — Tue, 25 May 2010 23:14:17 GMT

Where are you based?

were they puppies from breeders who had vaccinated their bitches?

I really don't understand why people insist on doing early vaccines in puppies that have come from well vaccinated bitches. it jsut seems like overkill.

I think I admitted a dog today who has parvo and apparently is vaccinated - he's about 6months.

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

shanley barber — Tue, 25 May 2010 20:56:30 GMT

Just to stir the pot, at our practice we've had two cases of unrelated healthy purebread puppies, vaccinated at 8 and 10 weeks, go on to develop parvo. The owners were extremely unhappy and forced our principle vet and Intervet to work very hard to come up with an explanation. So we now vaccinate at 8, 10 and 16 weeks.

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Ian Ross — Sat, 22 May 2010 12:58:29 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

I know that lots of people are saying that we are finishing our vaccines to early - but all I can base my decision on is that I haven't personally seen a case of parvo in a vaccinated dog. So I'm happy with our protocol of 8 and 10 weeks. If I start seeing (or hearing of) confirmed cases then I'll have a rethink.......

[/quote]About 3-4 years ago, we had some cases (about 3 confirmed) with Parvo having had the early vaccination protocol. But these were in "German" type dogs, so may have had deficient immunological responses even if had a 3rd vacc.

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

ruths — Thu, 20 May 2010 21:34:25 GMT

Re the parvo- there's loads of parvo in London!

If you ask any of the charity hospitals they'll tell you!

I see it as a socio-economic disease tbhMost of our cases are under 18months and part or unvaccinated.

I think i've seen one case of a vaccinated dog with parvo- but I've ssen tons of puppies/juvenile dogs over the last few years at least.

I think of london as a city smeared with a fine layer of crap full of parvo and toxacara!!

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Anthony Todd — Sun, 16 May 2010 08:52:32 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]It was concluded that a critical decrease in the population's immunity during 1990 to 1994 was a major reason for the outbreak in the summer of 1994 and that the ultimate test for vaccines is an outbreak of disease.[/quote]

This seems to suggest what they are trying to say.....

In addition, as they point out that 41% had a complete vaccination history [although we don't know the booster interval] suggesting I think, as they intimate, that just because a vaccine passes the approvals or testing necessary for a licence doesn't necessarily protect against the disease.

What I was attempting to get across is that, in the absence of significant field virus, any vaccine protocol will apparently "protect" against disease if there is minimal disease to protect against. S

Should there be an increase in field virus a similar scenario to that which occurred in Finland may occur here, particularly if boosters are spaced and vaccine is licensed based on anything other than field challenge.

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Kate Richardson — Sat, 15 May 2010 21:48:52 GMT

So was the outbreak due to a vaccine break down, or due to a reduced numbers of vaccinated animals within the population allowing the disease to establish itself again?

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 15 May 2010 20:19:38 GMT

Thanks Neil - I daren't reply 'cos I assumed I was missing something....

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Neil Paton — Sat, 15 May 2010 14:59:28 GMT

Perhaps i am being a bit thick - but this looks to support Gillians case - perhaps you could explain what you think it suggests.

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Anthony Todd — Sat, 15 May 2010 01:03:02 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]If what you suspect is true - and that our current vaccination program is inadequate, then the large unvaccinated population is already there......things have been done like this for quite a few years.[/quote]

I know it relates to distemper but read this:

Veterinary Record, Vol 141, Issue 15, 380-383 Outbreak of canine distemper in vaccinated dogs in Finland C. Ek-Kommonen, L. Sihvonen, L. Nuotio, KPekkanen, and U. Rikula [http://tinyurl.com/y9q6k8d].

Canine distemper reappeared in dogs in Finland in 1990 after a 16-year absence. In 1994 to 1995 an outbreak occurred in areas with a high density dog population which involved dogs vaccinated against distemper. The estimated total number of cases was at least 5000, and 865 cases were confirmed by indirect fluorescent antibody testing of 3649 epithelial cell samples. The signs recorded by veterinary clinicians ranged from conjunctivitis, pyrexia and anorexia to signs of respiratory and gastrointestinal illness, with an estimated mortality of 30 per cent. Of the confirmed cases 631 (73 per cent) were between three and 24 months of age; 487 of these had been vaccinated at least once and 351 (41 per cent) had a complete vaccination history. Of these 351 fully vaccinated animals the proportion of dogs vaccinated with the most popular vaccine was significantly higher than would have been expected by its market share. In total, 4676 serum samples were collected from healthy vaccinated dogs during the peak and decline of the outbreak and tested for the presence of virus neutralising antibodies. The decrease in the proportion of young dogs with antibody titres < 1/8 coincided with the decline and end of the outbreak during the spring and summer of 1995. It was concluded that a critical decrease in the population's immunity during 1990 to 1994 was a major reason for the outbreak in the summer of 1994 and that the ultimate test for vaccines is an outbreak of disease.

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 14 May 2010 08:15:15 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I suspect it's all over the place, just odd cases - until it gets into a sufficiently large unvaccinated population.[/quote]

I rest my case

[/quote]

If what you suspect is true - and that our current vaccination program is inadequate, then the large unvaccinated population is already there......things have been done like this for quite a few years.

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Anthony Todd — Thu, 13 May 2010 23:50:07 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I suspect it's all over the place, just odd cases - until it gets into a sufficiently large unvaccinated population.[/quote]

I rest my case

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 13 May 2010 22:50:45 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]AFAIK there is virtually no parvo or distemper in London,[/quote]

I bet there is! It's a big place, there's no requirement to report it. We get it occasionally in rural Yorkshire. We had cases in college (London Grad).

I suspect it's all over the place, just odd cases - until it gets into a sufficiently large unvaccinated population.

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 13 May 2010 16:53:10 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]AFAIK there is virtually no parvo or distemper in London, where are you? Obviously yours were confirmed cases, any further details; age, breed, history, numbers??[/quote]

North West of England. Confirmed cases - not masses, but is still a trickle. Only in unvaccinated puppies.

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Kate Richardson — Thu, 13 May 2010 15:11:37 GMT

I'm in agreement with Gillian; we also vaccinate at 6-8 weeks and 10 weeks and have not seen cases of parvo and we would re-evaluate should this differ in the future. We do see the occasional case, last one I remember was a ckcs puppy, I think it had had its first vaccine but not 2nd from memory.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]being "legal" and following the datasheet, which ever one that is, may be doing our animals a disservice.[/quote]

Unfortunately we seem to have do this with a lot of medications these days instead of reaching for the best drug for the job

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Anthony Todd — Thu, 13 May 2010 14:04:11 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"] We still see plenty of parvo in unvaccinated individuals.[/quote]

AFAIK there is virtually no parvo or distemper in London, where are you? Obviously yours were confirmed cases, any further details; age, breed, history, numbers??

The main point I am trying to advance is that the recommendations are based on the datasheets which can be based on dodgy science and always aided by lack of challenge which is why I quoted the Finnish outbreak.

The antivaccinationista base their passionate antagonism largely on lack of challenge, aided by anecdotes of totally unrelated sequelae.

I'm not sure if not confining animals until they have completed their vaccination results in much infection. I know the Guide dogs for the Blind always used to let them out straight away and I wonder if there would be some immunity [and/or maternal antibody] after the first shot anyway.

I'm no immunologist either, and if someone would point me to the light I'd be happy but just being "legal" and following the datasheet, which ever one that is, may be doing our animals a disservice.

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 13 May 2010 12:29:23 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"] You won't see a disease if there's no challenge![/quote]

erm....think I must be being a bit dim - but if there is a problem with our current vaccination protocols, we would be getting more parvo and there would be a challenge? We still see plenty of parvo in unvaccinated individuals.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]4. As far as an owner is concerned a breakdown is 100% failure[/quote]

Absolutely. I just haven't seen one. If they are happening, then of course I'd want to know. But a breakdown isn't the same as a rare occasional animal not mounting sufficient immune response. Isn't it inevitable that a very small number will fail? Or should there be a 100% positive response to vaccination? I'm no immunologist...

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]5. It is likely that maternal antibody may interfere with immunity at 10 weeks and even 16 weeks. Search e-vet for quotes.[/quote]

Absolutely. But hopefully not enough to matter???

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]6. Are you likely to get a better immunity if you give the vaccine later and/or more shots?[/quote]

Probably. But it may have been good enough already?

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]7. Apart from the contact issue, is there any down side for later or extended vaccination schedule.[/quote]

It depends on whether you are telling people to restrict their dog's socialisation - which I personally feel has a much more detrimental effect on dog welfare than a very rare vaccine failure.

I am well over my head with all this though so am happy to be corrected......

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Niall Taylor — Thu, 13 May 2010 07:11:26 GMT

[quote user="Sean Dunne"]What does everyone else do/think ?[/quote]

We stick to the data sheet - 8 weeks and 10 to 12 weeks. Problem for me is, if you're going to give a 3rd shot when do you give it? Mike Day has said 16 weeks, I've heard others say 6 months.

Niall

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Anthony Todd — Thu, 13 May 2010 00:43:28 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I haven't personally seen a case of parvo in a vaccinated dog[/quote]

Some observations:

1. You won't see a disease if there's no challenge! The powder the Council sprinkle around Piccadilly Circus has kept lions away for many years!!

2. Some manufacturers rely on very dodgy serological responses to their vaccine and not challenge, to substantiate their datasheet. Of course you will get a serological response to any antigen but is it the same as the disease antigen and wouldn't an unvaccinated animal give a serological response!

The manufacturers datasheet is taken as the proof of effectiveness rather than the VMD's own challenge testing.

3. I refer you to the outbreak in Finland which I've quoted before [from the Vet. Rec.]

http://tinyurl.com/y9q6k8d

4. As far as an owner is concerned a breakdown is 100% failure

5. It is likely that maternal antibody may interfere with immunity at 10 weeks and even 16 weeks. Search e-vet for quotes.

6. Are you likely to get a better immunity if you give the vaccine later and/or more shots?

7. Apart from the contact issue, is there any down side for later or extended vaccination schedule.

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 13 May 2010 00:07:38 GMT

We go by the data sheet. Try to do 2nd vacc @ 12 weeks and first 9 or 10 weeks.

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Ian Mostyn — Wed, 12 May 2010 21:55:02 GMT

But if you don't adhere to the manufacturers guidelines, I am guessing they wouldn't back you up as much in case of a problem. Who do you believe - the VMD backed manufacturers guidelines or the WSAVA talking generally about all vaccines?

Ian

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Richard Carter — Wed, 12 May 2010 17:49:43 GMT

8 and 10 weeks if owners insist on 'early vacc' otherwise 8 and 12 weeks (using Canigen DHPPi/L x 2)

Re: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 12 May 2010 16:34:13 GMT