Cardiguard - worth using?

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

Bob Russell — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 17:59:35 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

More than slightly scared by my brothers heart attack last week - should I take it? Brother has now gone on holiday!

[/quote]

Or you could just start/increase exercising, and eating plenty of oily fish such as sardines, salmon, mackerel, herring for example. Griilled sardines with lime and coriander - beautiful!

[/quote]

My kind of Cardiguard!!!!!

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

Russell leadsom — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 17:51:41 GMT

Back to the Hills J/d idea - a 40Kg dog will get 50mg/Kg/day EPA and 33mg/Kg DHA, whereas a smaller 20Kg dog eats relatively more and gets 60mg/Kg/day EPA and 40mg/Kg DHA - Thats plenty! (carguards are obviously just a South African phenomena, presumably unecessary unless you live in Merseyside)

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

Simon Neuhoff — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 12:15:27 GMT

I hate fish. When is someone going to come up with a study proving that large amounts of fatty red meat is good for you?

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

Clive Ansell — Wed, 11 Aug 2010 16:36:27 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

More than slightly scared by my brothers heart attack last week - should I take it? Brother has now gone on holiday!

[/quote]

Or you could just start/increase exercising, and eating plenty of oily fish such as sardines, salmon, mackerel, herring for example. Griilled sardines with lime and coriander - beautiful!

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 11 Aug 2010 16:05:05 GMT

[quote user="Mike Martin"]

Yes, thats correct ACEi should be used in every dog with any cause of heart failure.

But this thread is about fish oils I thought.....Cardiguard (Boehringer) and Gomega (Vetpus) are both fish oil products

............. at least that is what I was referring to

[/quote]

Since when has anyone stuck to the subject of the original post on this forum?

But my point was the belief was that ACEi is of benefit before onset of cardiac failure as a means of prevention or at least slowing progression into failure.

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

Mike Martin — Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:17:11 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]But surely the theory is that you are reducing afterload on the heart with ACEi. Plus disabling the hypertensive effects of the angiotensin-renin-aldosterone system will reduce the workload of the heart and slow the rate of progress of cardiac disease.[/quote]

Yes, thats correct ACEi should be used in every dog with any cause of heart failure.

But this thread is about fish oils I thought.....Cardiguard (Boehringer) and Gomega (Vetpus) are both fish oil products

............. at least that is what I was referring to

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

Julian Earl — Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:34:44 GMT

[quote user="Martin Jones"]

Hemp oil.........

[/quote]

Or just snake oil?

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 10 Aug 2010 18:41:08 GMT

[quote user="Mike Martin"]

Yep.....

But since dogs don't get coronary disease, there's no point in giving it to them for simply a murmur.

[/quote]

But surely the theory is that you are reducing afterload on the heart with ACEi. Plus disabling the hypertensive effects of the angiotensin-renin-aldosterone system will reduce the workload of the heart and slow the rate of progress of cardiac disease. This should also apply to our patients. Or am I being naive and overly simplistic?

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

Mike Martin — Tue, 10 Aug 2010 17:41:30 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

More than slightly scared by my brothers heart attack last week - should I take it? Brother has now gone on holiday!

[/quote]

Yep.....

But since dogs don't get coronary disease, there's no point in giving it to them for simply a murmur.

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

Bob Russell — Tue, 10 Aug 2010 13:47:03 GMT

More than slightly scared by my brothers heart attack last week - should I take it? Brother has now gone on holiday!

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 10 Aug 2010 11:14:19 GMT

How far does one go with speculative pre-emptive treatment? There's also plenty of other benefits to be had from EFA supplementation so perhaps everything should be getting it - I take if for my knackered knees to keep them running and skiing! I think a greater case could be made for pre-emptive treatment with ACEi, spironolactone or even pimobendan in any dog with suspect or potential cardiac disease but cardiologists keep telling us that there is no evidence that pre-emptive treatment helps slow progress to heart failure in these patients. Why? - because there's precious little research to show it although anecdotal evidence suggests it may. However IMO anything that may help, if the owner is on-board and prepared to pay, is worth it. Doesn't the medical profession suggest something like: all people over 60 should be on ACEi? Shouldn't we apply this to our patients if they're at risk of cardiac disease?

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

Rob Smith — Mon, 09 Aug 2010 18:34:23 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

I heard both Mark Oyama and Luca Ferasin talk about O3FAs at BSAVA last year.

[/quote]

They did indeed, and were both very positive.

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

Anonymous — Mon, 09 Aug 2010 11:10:50 GMT

I was recommended to give cardiguard to my lurcher puppy with a grade 3 heart murmur. I tried one pump but was unhappy with the mode of delivery - the pump does not appear to deliver the same volume each time - and with the cost.

I calculated the correct dosage based on the 40mg/kg EPA, 25mg/kg DHA and purchased Omega 3 Triple Strength capsules - 330mg EPA and 220mg DHA per capsule - from Simply Supplements. A year's supply for about 1.5 pumps - no contest! I prefer capsules - a measured dose each time.

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

Russell leadsom — Tue, 04 May 2010 17:57:16 GMT

not having this Cardiguard stuff here (we have car-guards!) , and on the basis of inflammatory and oxidative damage /responses in `heart failure` I have long been advising clients to simply use hills j/D and possibly add Vit E. Simple and sorts out those achy joints so they feel better anyway!

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

Mike Martin — Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:53:13 GMT

The content in the Advertisement in Vet Times this week (May 3) on page 15 is scientifically good.

Column 1 talks about the biochemistry - if its not your cuppa tea, skip on past.

Column 2 talks about DHA and EPA in humans - yes, us humans (ie. coronary disease) should all eat fish, the results of the trials are impressive.

Column 3, paragraph one, talks about THE TWO indications in dogs.

1. In dogs that develop cardiac cachexia supplementation improves body score and appetite (often the large breeds with DCM).

2. In Boxers with ARVC (aka. Boxer cardiomyopathy with ventricular arrhythmias) there is evidence that it reduces ventricular arrhythmias.

Which products should you use? Well you could simply go for something from the local chemist - it might be the cheapest source, but calculating the correct therapeutic dose is difficult.

Gomega (Vetplus) which has been out some years, I have verified the dose is correct as cited in the Freeman paper. [40mg/kg EPA and 25mg/kg DHA]

Cardiguard (Boehringer) the concentration of EPA and DHA on the package is unclear and I am waiting our local rep to get me that info.

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

jd2008 — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 08:44:34 GMT

Had the rep round yesterday and managed to make him squirm somewhat. I pointed out (and he admitted) that Boehringer are marketing a product which has absolutely no supporting clinical evidence for efficacy. The only research they could produce were 2 Italian studies on MI in humans. I pointed out that human cardiac disease - especially when we're talking about MI - is a world away from canine cardiac disease.

I got the spiel about cardiologists being excited by it but he was unable to name a single excited cardiologist.

The rep suggested that I sell the product to clients whose dogs have been diagonosed with "heart disease" - very vague about what he meant by that - which didn't require medical intervention but where the client felt they wanted to 'do something'. He admitted that there was no evidence that Cardiguard would have any beneficial effect but pointed out that it would do no harm.

I asked him what the difference between that and homoeopathy was.

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

Martin Jones — Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:26:22 GMT

Hemp oil.........

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

Rob Loxley — Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:44:03 GMT

[quote user="Mike Martin"]Go on .... give us some quotes from the reps. Many of you are bound to have had a visit from them.[/quote]

Actually didn't get too much of the hard sell and the rep conceded the limitations of their arguments (extrapolating from antiinflammatory/antioxidant effect in a petri dish/biochemistry textbook to clinical situations; extrapolating between human ischaemic heart disease and canine MMVD/DCM which are VERY different kettles of fish; the lack of canine clinical evidence) and the conclusion was that Cardiguard/O3FAs might be offered to clients as a possible beneficial treatment for asymptomatic cardiac cases particularly for people who want to 'do something' (but obviously if we could recommend them to lots of clients that would be good!) And no, despite the possible market being huge (asymptomatic cases>>symptomatic), no trials were planned.
Their possible benefits in clinical cases esp w.r.t. cardiac cachexia and boxer cardiomyopathy was touched on too.

I didn't even get to bringing up concerns about high exposure to organochlorines and heavy metals in Eskimos....

Guess we might use some, maybe also for atopic dogs and cognitive dysfunction too? Seems cheaper kg for kg than the competitor product.

I heard both Mark Oyama and Luca Ferasin talk about O3FAs at BSAVA last year. A number of supportive cardiologists were also mentioned by Boehringer (though whether they were strong advocates or had just bought a bottle wasn't clear), but Mike wasn't mentioned? So, what's your view?

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

salome2001 — Tue, 20 Apr 2010 09:49:06 GMT

can I take the original post a little laterally and ask if this would be suitable for age related senility though, given the high essential fatty acid content? went to the "aging brain" talks at bsava congress and the speaker seemed to think this worth doing

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

Mike Martin — Mon, 19 Apr 2010 17:23:54 GMT

Go on .... give us some quotes from the reps. Many of you are bound to have had a visit from them.

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

Hanna Bennett — Mon, 19 Apr 2010 16:21:46 GMT

went to a cardiology lecture last week by Joao Loueiro (think that's how you spell it!) and he seemed to think it might be worthwhile in the arrhythmogenic DCM Boxers but not any other cases

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

Rob Loxley — Mon, 19 Apr 2010 00:58:32 GMT

[quote user="toby travis"]It is no doubt seen as the pharmaceutical holy grail with regard to finding a treatment we can give dogs with heart disease (eg murmur) before they reach heart failure, and "apparently" is exciting many cardiologists[/quote]

It is no doubt seen as the holy grail with regard to finding a product that we can be encouraged by reps to sell as essential to a large number of owners of dogs with preclinical heart disease, at highish cost without being backed by any firm evidence of efficacy, and is apparently exciting many drug company shareholders??!

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

Rob Loxley — Mon, 19 Apr 2010 00:52:04 GMT

[quote user="toby travis"]the low incidence of heart disease in eskimos (whose diet is high in EPA & DHA) was higlighted at length[/quote]

If the reps are talking about people, the data doesn't seem to be entirely clearcut. From the Cohrane Review on Omega 3 fatty acids for prevention and treatment of cardiovascular disease:
"It is not clear that dietary or supplemental omega 3 fats alter total mortality, combined cardiovascular events or cancers in people with, or at high risk of, cardiovascular disease or in the general population. There is no evidence we should advise people to stop taking rich sources of omega 3 fats, but further high quality trials are needed to confirm suggestions of a protective effect of omega 3 fats on cardiovascular health."

Jumping from 'one group of people eat lots of fish and have low incidence of heart disease' (and are they actually claiming cause and effect in this population) to 'it must be the bees knees for, say, preclinical MMVD in dogs' is a huge leap. How many people see coronary heart disease in their veterinary patients??

However omega 3 oils are pretty cheap (haven't looked at this product in comparison), might help (or give false hope?) and probably don't harm, but I can't see the reasoning is stronger than that. As long as we make clear to our clients what the level of evidence is, and it doesn't detract from compliance with standard therapy.

By the by, anyone using CoQ10, measuring or supplementing taurine or L-carnitine?

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 18 Apr 2010 17:22:48 GMT

[quote user="toby travis"]We were told that the complany won't be doing any clinical trials themselves as it is a neutraceutical, [/quote]

Says it all, really

By the way, don't get offended, but I hope you meant "nutraceutical" although even that is a stupid made-up word that irritates me beyond reason.

[quote user="toby travis"]cardiologists are tremendously excited by it[/quote]

It's a favourite sales ploy to tell us that X (big name drop) is very excited by it. Along with

"some people are even using it for..........." (for which read "down in the bar somebody was fantasising about using it for...........)

Re: Cardiguard - worth using?

toby travis — Fri, 16 Apr 2010 17:23:39 GMT

Thanks for the replies -

Mike - The rep was suggesting it to be an option for a "range of cases", suggesting that we might like to offer it to an owner whose dog had asymptomatic heart disease who was anxious to take something that might be helpful, or use it for dogs that were in heart failure. We were told that the complany won't be doing any clinical trials themselves as it is a neutraceutical, but the low incidence of heart disease in eskimos (whose diet is high in EPA & DHA) was higlighted at length!

Holly - There were 2 papers quoted, only 1 looked interesting which was a study involving Boxers with arrhythmogenic right ventricular cardiomyopathy, which showed a reduction in VPCs in the dogs that were given high levels fish oil compared to sunflower oil or flax oil for 6 weeks.

Clive - As far as I understand the levels of EPA & DHA required to have this effect on cardiac cells are not present in a normal balanced diet - hence the strong emphasis on eskimos and their diet.

Overall none of us was that impressed and we're not looking to order any in (I'm sure that it may appeal to some practices though!). It wasn't particularly cheap and it wasn't clear whether insurance complanies would pay (it was suggested to contact them on a case by case basis). However, we were told quite a few times that cardiologists are tremendously excited by it and some are planning on using it! (1 name was supplied)