Neem tree bark

Re: Neem tree bark

ruths — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:51:37 GMT

I haven't looked it up as yet- i was just adding my tuppneyworth.

What are the /e Niall?

Clients wishes to avoid macrocytic lactones in her collie- and I'm not genetically testing at this stage (charity money) and she is also concerned re aludex.

Sooooo, I was asking re any experiencewith its use... but there doesn't seem to be any.
So i'll let you know if it is sarcoptes whether or not we use it and how it goes.
(once I've looke dit all up!)

Re: Neem tree bark

Rob Loxley — Thu, 21 Jan 2010 15:09:16 GMT

Ref macrocyclic lactone usage in susceptible breeds (which include Longhaired whippets and White GSDs...), genetic testing for MDR1 sensitivity is available. Have done this in a OESD with adult onset demodex that didn't respond to licensed treatments.

Re: Neem tree bark

Andrew Kent — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 17:42:43 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]

This is interesting, I have a client with a collie with suspected sarcoptes who was prescribed Moxidectin.

[/quote]

Moxidectin for Sarcoptes? Do you mean demodex? If sarcoptes then why not selamectin (stronghold?)

Andy

Re: Neem tree bark

Niall Taylor — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 16:01:27 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]against demodecosis?[/quote]

Oops - meant to say 'against sarcops' - I've changed it, got mixed up with the demodex thread.

Niall

Re: Neem tree bark

Niall Taylor — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:58:51 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]We've discussed that- and she's also a bit worried about the s/e.[/quote]

Have you discussed possible side effects from Neem bark and the point that there is no evidence to show it can be used successfully against sarcops?

Cheers,

Niall

Re: Neem tree bark

ruths — Tue, 19 Jan 2010 23:30:36 GMT

soryy- avoid putting it in ponds etc.. drains are ok!

I'm a bit busy this eve so posting randomly

Re: Neem tree bark

ruths — Tue, 19 Jan 2010 22:52:15 GMT

Drowsiness, don't put it into the drains - that kid of thing.

She's quite envrionmental and has read the warnings n the sheet and is a bit

I can't make her use it...so I'm happy to try the neem bark and see how it goes and then use the aludex as necessary

Re: Neem tree bark

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 19 Jan 2010 22:09:25 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]Though I think i'd go for the amitraz vs the moxidectin.[/quote]

Me too.

(What side effects?)

Re: Neem tree bark

ruths — Tue, 19 Jan 2010 22:04:01 GMT

We've discussed that- and she's also a bit worried about the s/e.

Though I think i'd go for the amitraz vs the moxidectin.

But we'll see ..

Re: Neem tree bark

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:56:01 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]Rather that than her come back with a twitchy collie ![/quote]

Use amitraz?

Re: Neem tree bark

ruths — Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:52:45 GMT

This is interesting, I have a client with a collie with suspected sarcoptes who was prescribed Moxidectin.

She doesn't want to use it... which actually I think is fair enough!

She'd like to try neem bark and I'm happy to give it a go.

Rather that than her come back with a twitchy collie !

Will let you know of my small n=1 research (that is if the serology comes up positive!)

Re: Neem tree bark

Rajat — Thu, 31 Dec 2009 14:31:44 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]Agreed, but the only way to properly assess such possibilities is by looking at properly conducted scientific trials. Non-specific, anecdotal endorsements cloud the issue and could give the impression that products are effective when they are not.[/quote]

Agree with you too :) - however I would call it very specific anecdotal knowledge - is what should push us towards investigating the effect of such substances in properly conducted clinical trials - and I wouldn't want it any other way before making definitive reccommendations...

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]Of course any practitioner worth their salt can have a sensible discussion about evidence, effectiveness and risk potential with a client without "scoffing" - I do it every day[/quote]

Maybe scoffed was an incorrect word to use, and I am not implying we all do that - I guess I was addressing what may be a perceived negative attitude towards all non pharma remedies which wouldn't help our relationships with clients .Of course some clients are similarly disdainful of anything not strictly allopathic so that could work both ways!

I feel it's best to have an open and inquiring, (yet critical) approach to therapeutic approaches ;)

Have a good new year :)

Cheers

Raj

Re: Neem tree bark

Niall Taylor — Tue, 22 Dec 2009 12:34:43 GMT

[quote user="RAJAT MUKHERJEE"]as scientists we need to remain open to the possibilities of various chemicals in the nautral world exerting an effect [/quote]

Agreed, but the only way to properly assess such possibilities is by looking at properly conducted scientific trials. Non-specific, anecdotal endorsements cloud the issue and could give the impression that products are effective when they are not.

[quote user="RAJAT MUKHERJEE"]if your vet scoffed at the results, wouldn't you be a bit dissapointed in him/her for their refusal to believe you or even consider this as a cause and effect relationship[/quote]

Of course any practitioner worth their salt can have a sensible discussion about evidence, effectiveness and risk potential with a client without "scoffing" - I do it every day .

Cheers,

Niall

Re: Neem tree bark

Rajat — Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:45:00 GMT

Did a bit more research and only one paper/abstract found for arthritis and another one for pain.. cant see full text anywhere...but for what its worth...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17402010?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=1

Planta Med. 1981 Sep;43(9):59-63.

Anti-arthritic and anti-inflammatory actions of nimbidin.

Pillai NR, Santhakumari G.

C.D.R.S. Pharmacological Research Unit, Department of Pharmacology, Medical College, Trivandrum, Kerala, India.

Nimbidin, a compound isolated from the oil of seeds of AZADIRACHTA INDICA (N EEM), has been screened in comparison with two standard anti-inflammatory agents, phenylbutazone, a non-steriod and prednisolone, a steroid; against various experimental models of inflammation. It was found to significantly reduce acute paw oedema in rats induced by phlogistic agents, carrageenin and kaolin. The test drug significantly suppressed the formalin-induced arthritis of ankle joint and the fluid exudation in croton oil-induced granuloma in rats. In acute phase of inflammation, nimbidin (40 mg/kg) was found to possess significant activity as compared to phenylbutazone (100 mg/kg). Since the drug was found to be effective in both acute and chronic phases of inflammation it can be considered as a general anti-inflammatory agent.

AND

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8786160?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=3

Antinociceptive action of Azadirachta indica (neem) in mice: possible mechanisms involved.

Khanna N, Goswami M, Sen P, Ray A.

Department of Pharmacology, U.C.M.S. & G.T.B. Hospital, Shahdara, Delhi, India.

Azadirachta indica (AI, Neem) was tested for analgesic potency in experimental pain models in mice. In the glacial acetic acid (GAA) induced writhing test, AI (10, 30 and 100 mg/kg) dose-dependently reduced both the incidence and the number of writhes. Similarly, AI, at the dose levels tested, also enhanced tail withdrawal latencies in the tail-flick test for nociception. In the interaction studies, pretreatment with the opioid antagonist, naloxone (1 mg/kg) and the central noradrenaline depleter, DSP-4 (50 mg/kg) attenuated AI analgesia by differential degrees in both experimental models, whereas, the serotonin synthesis inhibitor, PCPA (300 mg/kg) potentiated the same. These results suggest that both central and peripheral mechanisms and complex neural pathways, opioid and non-opioid, may be involved in AI induced analgesia.

Re: Neem tree bark

Rajat — Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:37:13 GMT

Hi Malcolm

I don't think I can answer that in any more detail than Tim - as he said neither one of us claimed it has any analgesic properties, in fact the evidence for this is scant and hence I would not use it for this purpose, however if a client reported good effects from it or if there was a significant body of anecdotal evidence I would not discount this either - always worth investigating these kinds of things and keeping an open mind 'scientifically'

I am not saying anyone who doesn't share the faith is at fault, or anything like that- all I'm saying is that as scientists we need to remain open to the possibilities of various chemicals in the nautral world exerting an effect physiologically which we may not fully understand yet or cannot discern with the tools at hand.

Let's just take one of the examples quoted in this conversation, you are a client who comes to see your vet for your cat with acne.If rubbing neem on your cats chin gets rid of its acne which several vet consults malasseb antibiotics etc didn't... (and not even going into the financial side of things..)what would you choose? And if your vet scoffed at the results, wouldn't you be a bit dissapointed in him/her for their refusal to believe you or even consider this as a cause and effect relationship?

Having said all of this...I don't want you to feel I use neem or other unproven remedies in preference to proven remedies and analgesics...I don't. I'm big on my multimodal Oa and pain management.... Never have used neem in fact apart from on my tomato plants. and as a face wash...helped with acne in teenage-hood!

Cheers

Raj

Re: Neem tree bark

Tim Cheyne — Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:03:45 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

....... All I want is an indication of where the evidence might lie to show that Neem Trre Bark is PROVEN to be effective in arthritis.

[/quote]

Malcolm, apart from the client and the groomer cited by Rudolph when he started this thread I don't think that anyone has suggested that Neem tree bark is proven to be effective in arthritis or that they have used it for such, but Rudolph asked........

< Has anyone heard of it/had any experience with it?>

I took this to mean experience with Neem in general, not specifically for OA. In fact both Raj and I have expressed doubts about its efficacy in OA although we have seen it used apparently effectively in some other conditions. In my case these have been mostly skin conditions and I attribute its effectiveness to the pyrethroid compounds that it is said to contain.

I agree that anecdotal evidence must be approached with caution (is this the same as 'evidence-based' medicine?) but I would not discount it entirely and it would certainly be interesting if someone has used it in OA whether successfully or not.

Tim.

Re: Neem tree bark

Malcolm Ness — Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:23:34 GMT

"Thanks and glad to see you too use non pharmaceutical/ natural products which have been proven to help with certain conditions."

As seems typical of all discussions about "off piste" pharmaceuticals, we see the drift of reference from widely used folk remedy, through lists of what it has been used for, then on to the "nature knows best" platitude before pausing briefly to suggest that anyone who doesn't share the faith is at fault for not being "open minded" - offensive nonsense! Now we have arrived at the claim that the product is PROVEN. I am not picking specifically on Neem Tree bark, the pattern is repeated for every newly fashionable bit folklore.

So, my question is, where is the evidence (I don't seek absolute proof) that this product might be effective? I am not in the least bit interested in stories, history and folklore - even if you are tempted to call it "anecdotal evidence" - a phrase that defines oxymoron. All I want is an indication of where the evidence might lie to show that Neem Trre Bark is PROVEN to be effective in arthritis.

Re: Neem tree bark

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 20:03:02 GMT

[quote user="RAJAT MUKHERJEE"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]What is a decongestant?[/quote]

google it

[/quote]

But I asked you.

Re: Neem tree bark

Rajat — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 13:07:15 GMT

Hi Rudolf

Thanks and glad to see you too use non pharmaceutical/ natural products which have been proven to help with certain conditions. I think that with a product like neem its likely to have multiple effects on different body systems as 'neem' is the plant and the active ingredients are numerous...however I have no info on it being used for OA...and certainly wouldnt advocate it as a first line painkiller, but wouldnt be averse to using it as an add on either to see if it 'helps'.

Here's a small research letter outlining some work done on anti-nociception using NEem leaf extract in mice using the tail flick latency test...

https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/8640/1/ph05009.pdf

I agree licensed products tend to be specific in ther aims to treat conditions - usually because they contain one targeted active ingredient.

I am debating this mainly with my herbalists hat on (mind you a very very small hat) but for the most part Rudolf I agree with you that its unlikely to be of any significant benefit for the dog's pain sadly...):

Have a great Xmas and new yr everyone

Cheers

Raj

Re: Neem tree bark

Rajat — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 12:47:12 GMT

Hi Tim

Lol Tim no probs, I thought that question may well come up! Traditionally it has not been found elsewhere apart from the 'Indian subcontinent' I am not sure re indonesia and africa but would love to know if this is the case...I have lived in Sri Lanka and bangladesh and travelled in bhutan and maldives and not found it in these places except bangladesh as you stated.

I too have seen numerous neem products marketed in India for different uses...from human health to botany to animal health. In the link posted on page 1 or 2 theres a table showing different effects of the neem plant extract and uses. Sometime ago an american company tried to patent it...hilarious...!

I do wish pharmas would take more interest in these substances but if itgrows wild and is easily acessible to all...it doesn't make money!

Re: Neem tree bark

Rajat — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 12:41:12 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]What is a decongestant?[/quote]

google it

Re: Neem tree bark

Tim Cheyne — Wed, 16 Dec 2009 15:05:40 GMT

Raj, I agree with most of what you say except, to be pedantic (well, pathologists have to be don't they?), the implication that neem grows only in India. I met it in Bangladesh and was told that it grew in many sub-tropical regions including Myanmar, parts of Pakistan, Indonesia and possibly Africa. I was fortunate and never tasted it but my Bangladesh assistant assures me that it is bitter, and is actually used as a bitter for various stomach complaints much as is Fernet. Whether it can replace Angostura in pink gin I leave to others to investigate.

To an earlier comment about its multiple uses, I don't know why this is but it might be that, like so many impure natural extracts it contains several components. In some Asiatic countries, local offshoots of major pharmaceutical companies do market neem products. It might be interesting to find out whether any isolated and purified components are used in Western medicine.

Tim.

Re: Neem tree bark

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:07:03 GMT

[quote user="RAJAT MUKHERJEE"]sometimes nature knows best for eg olbas oil- a bloody fantastic decongestant![/quote]

What is a decongestant?

Re: Neem tree bark

Rudolph — Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:10:37 GMT

[quote user="RAJAT MUKHERJEE"]

I guess I am railing a bit against theinstant recoil/ full stop that any herbal or alternative medication brings to most of our minds..I wish we were more open minded.

[/quote]

Raj, I'm not completely shut to the possibilities of remedies outside of licensed pharmaceuticals. I also use milk thistle or evening primrose oil, green-lipped muscle and the like.

My problem with remedies such as this is the breadth of conditions they claim to treat - if one substance really could do everything as claimed then I have no doubt that a pharmaceutical company would have long ago invested substantial amounts into marketing and developing such a product. I don't believe that neem or aloe vera or anything else could be the panacea they purport to be. I don't know of any licensed product that makes any similar claims - they tend to be specific to a condition or a range of similar conditions.

I also fully believe that the owner of the dog that originally sparked this post will be back in a month or so when her dog is 9/10 lame again, as it initially presented!

Re: Neem tree bark

Rajat — Tue, 15 Dec 2009 21:21:20 GMT

Hi All

Tim just wanted to say I totally agree with you re the pharmaceutical companies in the forests... and seeing as you spent some time in India I'm sure you saw its varying uses, I hope you weren't given it to eat...it's bloody bitter!

Neem is indeed quite an interesting and very widely used plant in India. Incidentally only grows there. It has been noted to have significant anti parasitic and anti bacterial properties and is used as a topical for this purpose including on plants to keep insects off (as a pest repellent)

I havent heard of it being used for OA or pain but references do suggest it being useful... incidentally chillies/capsicain is quite good for OA pain and now used topically significantly reduces OA pain... I wonder if we would be dubious about such a simple remedy for pain before the clinical data emerged?

There is thousands of years of experience from the local people (with neem) who have been using it for multiple health benefits...I'm not sure they'd have carried on if they found people with malaria who take neem dont really get better! (I know thats not a scientific arguement but I'm willing to go there!)

Heres one of many papers I found by Googling 'Neem' on Scholar (just <50,000)

http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/jun102002/1336.pdf

I wish we didn't have such a mental block to herbal/plant based meds. I am a thoroughly modern vet and use licensed modern medicines on animals. Occasionally I do prescribe herbal products, including tree bark powder, slippery elm, milk thistle, garlic tabs and olbas oil to owners who either want a herbal/naturalistic approach first or where I feel it is beneficial as an add on to a allopathic medication regime...sometimes nature knows best for eg olbas oil- a bloody fantastic decongestant! Works wonders on me and my cats and I know that it will give me less side effects than Cetrizine for example.

I guess I am railing a bit against theinstant recoil/ full stop that any herbal or alternative medication brings to most of our minds..I wish we were more open minded.

Sorry for the hijack

Raj.