rabies vacc interval

Re: rabies vacc interval

Jillian Hall — Sat, 31 Oct 2009 12:26:08 GMT

I haven't seen anyone have problems with their 3 yearly booster if just travelling to France etc for a short period of time but I've spoken to a few clients who prefer to get their rabies boosters yearly for fear pro problems at the ports. Apparently in the early days of the passports there were some inadequately trained customs people at the French side who caused problems. They only knew the French reg's of yearly vac and coudn't comprehend that the UK passports were OK with their 3 year jab. As I say I haven;t heard of this happening recently but maybe some of the yearly vac policies from UK vets are a hangover from encountering this problem in the past.

Re: rabies vacc interval

cheshirevet — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:59:20 GMT

Although a pre-travel check is definitely not mandatory with the pet-passport, it is required by many airlines. Some will accept a stamp on the Clinical Examination page of the passport, some require a separate Fit-to-Travel certificate. This can get quite tedious (and expensive!) for frequent flyers!

Re: rabies vacc interval

Rudolph — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 09:21:12 GMT

I've learned my lessons and updated my policies.

Thanks everyone.

Re: rabies vacc interval

Niall Taylor — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:31:08 GMT

[quote user="Rudolph"]I don't know why it would be there if it wasn't mandatory.[/quote]

Same reason that the DHPL vaccine pages are there - in case regulations change in the future. Pre-travel health checks are not a mandatory DEFRA requirement.

Cheers,

Niall

Re: rabies vacc interval

Niall Taylor — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:26:42 GMT

[quote user="scarlet"]as i understand it the nobivac vacc is licensed for 3yrs and as such should be accepted as such by eu countries. however a significant proportion of practices insist on yearly vaccination as they believe that as eu countries only have yearly vacc they wont recognise ours[/quote]

There seems to be confusion here between the pet passport and local EU countries' requirements. If a pet is vaccinated in UK then the passport will have a 3 year duration that will be accepted for the purposes of pets crossing borders by every participating country - end of story, no exceptions. It's the same as when we are faced with a pet passport issued in Spain, also using the intervet product, only in that nation's data sheet the duration is only 12 months - we still have to renew by 12 months, even though the UK data sheet says different. We can't arbitrarily decide that we'll give them 3 years instead, neither can a Spanish vet arbitrarily insist on annual vaccs for the passport issued in UK.

Local requirements for pets who live, long term, in participating countries will vary as to the frequency of rabies vaccination; this has nothing at all to do with the pet passport. That depends entirely on the local veterinary authorities and UK practices have no business giving annual vaccinations in the hope of satisfying foreign requirements unless they are au fait with the local rules and regs and/or employed by the state veterinary service of the country in question.

[quote user="scarlet"]some practices are advising mandatory pretravel health chks [/quote]

How can you have something that is mandatory but only advised?

[quote user="scarlet"]however i have not seen any definitive statement from defra on these subjects [/quote]

Have a look here: http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/pets/travel/index.htm

There is no mention of mandatory pre-travel checks because there is no such requirement by DEFRA to have them. A practice can advise them, but if they are really saying they are mandatory then that is false. The only exception is if a pet is going to the continent and will be returning between 24 and 48 hours after departure when there is a legal requirement for tick and tapeworm treatment (but not a health check).

[quote user="scarlet"]surely a concensus of opinion would be helpful ?[/quote]

Nope, that way madness lies! We need to stick to the letter of the DEFRA regulations as set out on their web-site - opinion has nowt to do with it .

Cheers,

Niall

Re: rabies vacc interval

Utlendigur — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:56:15 GMT

Forgot to add - the only other microchip problem we've had was in a labrador, where the chip simply slid back out through the hole when the dog got home. That one belonged to the ex partner in the practice.

Re: rabies vacc interval

Utlendigur — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:53:03 GMT

We had one microchip fail - in our head nurse's show dog which regularly travelled to shows abroad Luckily picked up at booster rather than en route. We were able to remove the chip UGA, put another one in and the chip company were able to read it, avoiding us having to go through the passport again although I can't remember all the details of the paperwork. At one CPD meeting the speaker advised that if a microchip "fails" it can sometimes be due to the scanner battery running down so always better to check with a fully charged scanner before panicking.

We don't do pre-travel health checks unless going to a country that requires them but do offer the clients the option of dropping in to let the nurses check the chip is working prior to travel. We also make sure at passport issue that clients are aware of the various disease risks including giving written advice about reducing risks, recommended products and symptoms to watch for - plus all the usual stuff on 6mths wait, boosters on time, different legislation in other countries etc making it clear it is the client's responsibility

Re: rabies vacc interval

Rob Loxley — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 22:12:34 GMT

Re: residency in France, I believe it to be 3 months (see http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/pets/travel/factsheet/factsheet3-081016.htm.pdf, page 9).

The only recurring issue we have is AVID encrypted chips in animals from the USA

Re: rabies vacc interval

Charlotte Marshall — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 20:26:19 GMT

The information I got was that she may not have had to have the dog in quarantine the full 6 months. You can get the microhip surgically removed and sent to the company who made it and sometimes they can read the number directly off the chip. Then they can be let out early. ( You can put in a new chip at the time of surgery and if the original number can be read it is possible to annotate the pasport so it stays valid)

Re: rabies vacc interval

sophia guymer — Wed, 07 Oct 2009 20:32:14 GMT

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]

she told me she had heard they had 'strong' scanners at the airport in the UK and she was just going to fly in and sort it out when she arrived!

I understand there is some variation between the capabilities of different scanners, both with the power and the range of frequencies that they scan.

[/quote]

My shepherd (RIP) was chipped in Belgium and we always worried about the reading of the chip at the border as at the vets in Holland (am dutch myself) they had two types of readers and one of them could not read my dogs chip! Was never a problem with our own reader in England, and never was a problem at the border, but the knowledge that it could be did worry me everytime. (even considered getting a reader myself!)

Sophia

Re: rabies vacc interval

Laurence Webb — Wed, 07 Oct 2009 09:37:40 GMT

Nice to see the Spanish vet doing his job to the letter!

[quote user="Charlotte Marshall"] she told me she had heard they had 'strong' scanners at the airport in the UK and she was just going to fly in and sort it out when she arrived! [/quote]

I understand there is some variation between the capabilities of different scanners, both with the power and the range of frequencies that they scan. It is possible that the Spanish vet had an old scanner that only scanned over a narrow bandwidth so it may have been OK at an airport. If it was an ISO chip then that shouldn't have been an issue anyway though.

[quote user="Charlotte Marshall"]. I don't know what the outcome was in the end as she did not come back to our area of the country.[/quote] Hopefully OK as it was quite a gamble for her to take. 6mths quarantine isn't cheap!

Re: rabies vacc interval

Charlotte Marshall — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 22:25:16 GMT

I had a client ring me from outside the vets in Spain who had just failed to read her dogs chip. The dog had been out there for a couple of years and I do not know if they had regularly checked its chip. I explained what options she had and got her the information about having it sorted in quarantine. she told me she had heard they had 'strong' scanners at the airport in the UK and she was just going to fly in and sort it out when she arrived! This implies her Spainish vet had signed for the tick and tapeworm treatments without being able to read its chip. I don't know what the outcome was in the end as she did not come back to our area of the country.

Re: rabies vacc interval

Laurence Webb — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 22:56:23 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I have never personally had a microchip fail, and the only one I have heard of failing was checked on the outward journey and was working fine. Do you see microchip failures more often than me? [/quote]

I had one fail in a dog. It was put in when a pup then when older had been vaccinated against rabies and the blood test done. The chip was checked at these and other times so I know it was working. The chip subsequently failed (although not when the animal was abroad, thankfully.

I also had a dog who 'spat out' the chip through it's skin several years after implantation. The owner found it on their kitchen floor and brought it in to ask if it was a microchip. It was still functional but obviously of no use if not in the dog!

Re: rabies vacc interval

sarah mason — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:32:18 GMT

I give the rabies vacc as per the data sheet and write the date on the passport-but I do warn clients that some countries may require more frequent vaccination and should check with defra. most of the clinets in my last job went for the 2 yearly booster for rabisin and had no problems.

I did have one dog though who had had a pre-travel check every time he travelled-the passport filled up very quickly and then the client wanted a new one issued. obviously I had to charge him for it which didnt go down well so the 3 pages at the back dont do well for frequent travellers. I think I was the first person to tell him the check wasnt mandatory.

I guess many people take their dogs long journeys from Scotland-Cornwall for example could be over 10 hours. versus Dover to Calais.........I do always ask which country they are going to and advise Stronghold etc

Re: rabies vacc interval

scarlet — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 15:49:47 GMT

by golly ,i've opened a can of worms - just as i suspected . there is obviously no clear consensus . i myself travel frequently to the continent (France) and my animals go by ferry or eurotunnel. no pre travel checks are necessary or asked for. my 3yr rabies vacc is never questioned even by my local vet who does my health chk for the return. i agree it is a good idea to get the chip scanned before travel!

there is so much confusion about this - i also regularly read forums for expatsand travellers and they are often banging on about different vets say different things about the same journey, who do they believe if they cant believe their vet etc etc. some have even described us as rip off merchants for charging for pretravel checks and yearly jabs.

i have found defra singularly unhelpful when asked - getting different replies at different times.

i would like to see someone " incharge" give us a definitive answer for travel in the eu!

thankyou for everyones views!

Re: rabies vacc interval

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 15:49:14 GMT

Going slightly off topic, but Rudolph mentioned cows, sheep etc. I wish they all had full individual health checks b4 export (particularly for slaughter ) We all know the law requires a veterinary check We also know that in practice a transporter full of sheep will never be unloaded and each animal given a full individual health check-thermometer, stethescope etc- economics dictate otherwise. If the press or TV want to bash veterinary surgeons, why don't they chose this area, rather than criticising us for already low fees?

Wynne

Re: rabies vacc interval

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 15:35:26 GMT

[quote user="Rudolph"]I get the impression that you think I'm out to make a quick buck.[/quote]

I'm sorry. It wasn't my intention. You are obviously trying to provide an excellent service for your clients - I didn't mean to insinuate otherwise. But I still don't see why every animal needs a pre-travel healthcheck.

[quote user="Rudolph"] You wouldn't subject cows, sheep, horses or any other animal to a long journey without a health check - what's the difference for dogs and cats?[/quote]

And if an animal was having a long journey - such as by air or ferry - most carriers would ask for a health check. But they could equally be going to Calais for the day!

[quote user="Rudolph"]Would you apply the same philosophy in terms of tick and heartworm treatments? Do you rely on the owner to do the research for endemic diseases in the area to which they're travelling and then request the treatment? I know it's not a legal requirement but I believe it to be far more important to the animal then the passport.[/quote]

I would give this advice at the time of rabies vacc - I agree - it probably is more important than the passport!

[quote user="Rudolph"] It was DEFRA who recommended to me that I should inform clients of the residency rule, but clearly your local office hasn't provided you with such information. How can the vets be consistent if DEFRA isn't?[/quote]

Very true. I always thought that if I passed on the responsibility to the client to contact DEFRA, they were more likely to get completely accurate advice tailored to them. I have probably been too naive.

Incidentally, off subject:

[quote user="Rudolph"] I don't charge huge amts - I generally charge it as a cut nails type consult - approx £8.[/quote]

That's very cheap! I thought we charged reasonably but you wouldn't get into a room with a vet here for less than £14 (excepting post-op type checks obviously!) Afterall, our fixed costs for a vet wouldn't be much below that. They may get a VN for £8!

Re: rabies vacc interval

Rudolph — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 15:00:22 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]But in my view it would be unethical to enforce your opinion that a health check is required, and hence further charges, without telling the owner that it isn't a legal requirement. [/quote]

I get the impression that you think I'm out to make a quick buck. I'm genuinely not. The first practice I worked for always told me a pre-travel check was required and I've always done it. I don't remember anyone contradicting that at my LVI training. You wouldn't subject cows, sheep, horses or any other animal to a long journey without a health check - what's the difference for dogs and cats? I don't charge huge amts - I generally charge it as a cut nails type consult - approx £8. I'll make it abdundantly obvious from now on that this is not a legal requirement!

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Do you see microchip failures more often than me?[/quote]

I've never seen one but it must happen to somebody. For two minutes of your time, what's the problem?

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]surely a nurse could run a scanner over the pet FOC? They could even do a quick exam and temp check for a small fee[/quote]

If I had a nurse, I'd be happy to let her do it.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]But if I have a client with a reasonable intelligence level then I can assume they are able to do the research themselves.[/quote]

Would you apply the same philosophy in terms of tick and heartworm treatments? Do you rely on the owner to do the research for endemic diseases in the area to which they're travelling and then request the treatment? I know it's not a legal requirement but I believe it to be far more important to the animal then the passport.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]For a legal document like the passport, shouldn't we all be saying the same as far as what is required?[/quote]

Yes. But as someone else has pointed out, DEFRA aren't always forthcoming with help and advice. My LVI training was a bit vague and non-specific and I remember them not being able to answer all our questions on the day (though I can't remember the specific questions!). It was DEFRA who recommended to me that I should inform clients of the residency rule, but clearly your local office hasn't provided you with such information. How can the vets be consistent if DEFRA isn't?

Re: rabies vacc interval

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:35:29 GMT

[quote user="Rudolph"]There are a few pages in the passports for clinical examination where a vet is required to certify the animal as fit for carriage to its destination. Because it's in the passport I've always filled that out. I don't know why it would be there if it wasn't mandatory. [/quote]

Just in case they are going to a country that requires a pre-import health check. But in my view it would be unethical to enforce your opinion that a health check is required, and hence further charges, without telling the owner that it isn't a legal requirement. I'm all for offering the gold standard - as long as the client is aware of all the facts.

[quote user="Rudolph"]However, we're paid for our advice and time and why not make the whole process as easy as possible?[/quote]

OK. But if I have a client with a reasonable intelligence level then I can assume they are able to do the research themselves. I am happy to give them DEFRA's number and they can ring them, hence saving themselves some money. If they don't want to do it, I'll do it myself and charge them for my time.

[quote user="Rudolph"] It sets everyone's mind at ease also if the microchip is checked immediately prior to travel (unless it doesn't work, I suppose, but better find out here than on return). [/quote]

I have never personally had a microchip fail, and the only one I have heard of failing was checked on the outward journey and was working fine. Do you see microchip failures more often than me?

If you really want to check every animal before export, surely a nurse could run a scanner over the pet FOC? They could even do a quick exam and temp check for a small fee. Obviously they can't complete the passport - but that isn't compulsory anyway.....

All I am saying is that, as the locum said, different practices seem to be giving different advice. That can't be good for the profession. For a legal document like the passport, shouldn't we all be saying the same as far as what is required? Any added advice should be just that - in addition to the legal requirements.

Re: rabies vacc interval

Rudolph — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:16:38 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

But unless the company/person shipping the animal demands a health check, it isn't mandatory. And chips are checked yearly with boosters anyway. Do you just offer it as an added service then?

[/quote]

There are a few pages in the passports for clinical examination where a vet is required to certify the animal as fit for carriage to its destination. Because it's in the passport I've always filled that out. I don't know why it would be there if it wasn't mandatory. It sets everyone's mind at ease also if the microchip is checked immediately prior to travel (unless it doesn't work, I suppose, but better find out here than on return). I do check microchips at boosters also but it's a "belt and braces" approach - it doesn't hurt the animal, so where's the harm?

The 6-8 week prior to travel check is not mandatory; I tell people that. However, I also explain that PETS is to protect the UK, not their pet and that additional preventative treatments for ticks and heartworm is highly recommended.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Fulfilling the requirements of import into another country, or their requirements for the animal becoming 'a resident' , is up to the owner to research [/quote]

I agree, and I do make that clear to clients. However, we're paid for our advice and time and why not make the whole process as easy as possible? I have a number of clients with property abroad mainly France, one or two in Spain. I think this is the kind of information that they need to know and isn't immediately apparent when reading about the travel scheme on the internet. The one or two clients who may have fallen into the bracket of becoming "resident" have been grateful for the advice although it's never actually been an issue for anyone yet (they have shorter stays).

Generally, people spend a lot of money to travel with their pets so where's the harm in being a bit cautious and ensuring it all goes smoothly?

Re: rabies vacc interval

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:33:58 GMT

[quote user="Rudolph"]I do think that health checks prior to travel are still necessary to ensure microchips etc are still okay and that animals are clinically well before undertaking a long journey. We always recommend a consult 6-8 weeks before travel to discuss tick and heartworm treatments and a check within 48hrs of travel for the rest.[/quote]

But unless the company/person shipping the animal demands a health check, it isn't mandatory. And chips are checked yearly with boosters anyway. Do you just offer it as an added service then?

[quote user="Rudolph"]My understanding of it is that the vaccine interval for on the data sheet is acceptable be it one year or three years. However, a dog becomes subject to French regulations (annual rabies vaccination) if it spends more than 6 months in France at any time. I don't know how things are in other EU countries or the US.[/quote]

I find it is best to make the client understand that we are simply fulfilling the requirements of the PETS travel scheme for return to the UK without quarantine by issuing a passport. The rabies vaccination interval for the pet passport is determined by the data sheets in the UK.

Fulfilling the requirements of import into another country, or their requirements for the animal becoming 'a resident' , is up to the owner to research and we will simply carry out any work requested by themselves or DEFRA. Obviously for most west European countries then a pet passport is sufficient - but I always tell the client to ring DEFRA and confirm each individual countries requirements.

Re: rabies vacc interval

ms1083 — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:25:37 GMT

This was asked as a specific question at my DEFRA LVI training. The answer was simply that whatever is written in the passport under the due by date is the legally binding date and all EU countries should accept that whatever their local rules.

The date to put in the due by date is that publised on the data sheet for the particular make of rabies vaccine used.

Re: rabies vacc interval

Clive Ansell — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 12:27:04 GMT

I too as a locum come across the same thing. I am not an LVI and try and avoid LVI related work. I will not give LVI related advice, instead direct the client to DEFRA or the embassy of the country concerned.

Re: rabies vacc interval

Rudolph — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 11:45:38 GMT

My understanding of it is that the vaccine interval for on the data sheet is acceptable be it one year or three years. However, a dog becomes subject to French regulations (annual rabies vaccination) if it spends more than 6 months in France at any time. I don't know how things are in other EU countries or the US.

Tick and tapeworm treatments are not required for every country before travel, I think maybe Cyprus or Malta require it. I do think that health checks prior to travel are still necessary to ensure microchips etc are still okay and that animals are clinically well before undertaking a long journey. We always recommend a consult 6-8 weeks before travel to discuss tick and heartworm treatments and a check within 48hrs of travel for the rest.

I do a lot of passports - I haven't come unstuck yet :) How's that for tempting fate?!