Pesticides in songbird's nests

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Lindsey Edwards — Tue, 15 Apr 2025 12:44:00 GMT

If your test is negative, how long do you think the results are valid for and when would you recommend re-testing? Many parasites have intermittent shedding in older dogs and I feel I would want a number of negatives and no change in lifestyle before saying they would never need treatment given the ubiquitous contamination of public parks with the likes of Toxocara? ESCCAP guidelines seem quite balanced at first glance?

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Clive Ansell — Wed, 09 Apr 2025 09:40:02 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31140/pesticides-in-songbird-s-nests/246979#246979"]I charge a Milbemax out at £8. 5-25kg of dog treated.[/quote]

Then, a Labrador for example being treated every 3 months would be £64. If you run the test and its negative no need to treat and saves money as well as unnecessary use of parasiticides.

Maybe anti parasitic drugs should be much more expensive? to encourage/force responsible usage

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 07 Apr 2025 23:25:13 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31140/pesticides-in-songbird-s-nests/246739#246739"]A faecal sample for basic parasitology at Idexx is £27.50 to the practice, plus mark up, VAT etc. Even doubling that price, it isn't that much and probably cheaper than just treating.[/quote]

I charge a Milbemax out at £8. 5-25kg of dog treated. If you had multiple dogs, you'd need multiple samples. Have to test the dog every few months

I costed equine tapeworm testing recently and it was double the cost of treating, and the test doesn't detect all tapeworm (so could be a false negative).

(never diagnosed lungworm but see dogs die from lepto every year).

Sheep, it is cheaper to test as there is a group to treat. Also more of a risk as a bigger population treated at once, far more pet worms in refugia at a given time.

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 07 Apr 2025 16:09:44 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31140/pesticides-in-songbird-s-nests/246677#246677"]I wonder what would happen, where someone is on such a plan, and a veterinary surgeon will not prescribe the anti-parasitics included on the plan, because they do not feel they are clinically indicated? [/quote]

I have this discussion quite frequently with clients. A couple of previous vets at one of our branches decided the lungworm risk was too high and all dogs were on monthly milbemax/generic white label equivalent. We are in a very low risk area for lungworm, despite what the Advocate risk map says, so it really doesn't need to be done.

I think it's 50:50. A lot of clients will go, 'ok, great less work for me to do' but a lot also say 'oooh, welll I wouldn't want to risk it'

Same with the Elanco 'worm-wise' tracker or whatever it's called. Thought that was supposed to limit the use of endoparasiticides, but apparently if your dog goes outside and is out of your sight at any point, they need monthly worming according to them...

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Eamon McAllister — Mon, 07 Apr 2025 06:20:15 GMT

Dr. Leon Barron from Imperial College was interviewed on the Today programme this morning. His report on pollution in Langstone and Chichester harbours said that the worst offenders were the residues of flea and tick treatments.

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Judith Joyce — Thu, 13 Mar 2025 10:27:41 GMT

I was about to respond smugly that we only have a seasonal tick problem in Northumberland, so geography was important in deciding on tailor made parasiticidal use. Then 2 of our dogs walked in with ticks this week (normally don't start thinking about ticks till we stop thinking about snow, about May.)

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

janine redman — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 22:29:41 GMT

Interesting as I have not diagnosed more than one case in the last 5 years . Whereas I have had several possible leptospirosis cases . Also we gets ticks all year round . So I would not recommend monthly lungworm treatment but most patients I advise tick treatment

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Beats — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 16:15:17 GMT

I see about 3 serious / fatal cases of lungworm a year, so similar to lepto.

Totally preventable with routine treatment. I'm not sure an annual fecal smear would be so effective.

I'd be more likely to advise routine lungworm prophylaxis than lepto vaccines based on what I see.

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Clive Ansell — Fri, 28 Feb 2025 11:33:53 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31140/pesticides-in-songbird-s-nests/246738#246738"]I used to promote a wormer - endlessly doom-mongering about people going blind etc. ('the risk may be small but the consequences awful') but the risk is tiny, and there's no guarantee that eliminating toxocara from dogs would remove it anyway. [/quote]

Similar when Advocate spot-on was new on the block, and media scaremongering over lungworm, despite which we saw very few cases.

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Clive Ansell — Fri, 28 Feb 2025 11:13:22 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31140/pesticides-in-songbird-s-nests/246738#246738"]I don't know what a faecal egg count costs to perform, invoice etc.[/quote]

Most practices don't seem to offer it, but it is quick and easy to do, and similar microscopic work is usually in the order of £25-£40 A faecal sample for basic parasitology at Idexx is £27.50 to the practice, plus mark up, VAT etc. Even doubling that price, it isn't that much and probably cheaper than just treating.

Idexx also run a more detailed and specific screen, "Test then Treat Parasitology" which includes Microscopical examination, Parasites, Cryptosporidia ELISA, Giardia antigen immunoassay, Hookworm, roundworm , whipworm, flea tapeworm antigen immunoassays for £78.50.

Maybe this is the way forward, treatment based on a diagnosis, just as we are doing more and more with antibiotic usage?

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 28 Feb 2025 10:50:18 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31140/pesticides-in-songbird-s-nests/246732#246732"]In my first job, busy 3 vet clinic, we had our own lab and technician, so did a lot of faecal analysis for GI cases. We would almost never find worm eggs in adult dog and cat faeces, so is there really a problem out there? and do they all need frequent routine treatments? [/quote]

That was what I was wondering.

I don't know what a faecal egg count costs to perform, invoice etc. But surely there needs to be a reasonable chance of a positive or you would be better treating if clinical signs seen?

I used to promote a wormer - endlessly doom-mongering about people going blind etc. ('the risk may be small but the consequences awful') but the risk is tiny, and there's no guarantee that eliminating toxocara from dogs would remove it anyway.

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Clive Ansell — Fri, 28 Feb 2025 09:39:05 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31140/pesticides-in-songbird-s-nests/246731#246731"]Can I ask what the justification for a regular worm egg count would be? I’m not sure I remember ever needing one![/quote]

Treatment would be based on whether the patient has endoparasites or not, rather than doing routinely.

A nurse I sometimes work with trained in the USA, she was telling the practice in Florida where she worked, did routine faecal worm egg counts at annual vaccination appointments, and only ever treated if clinically indicated. Good idea.

In my first job, busy 3 vet clinic, we had our own lab and technician, so did a lot of faecal analysis for GI cases. We would almost never find worm eggs in adult dog and cat faeces, so is there really a problem out there? and do they all need frequent routine treatments?

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 28 Feb 2025 08:57:35 GMT

[quote userid="4181" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31140/pesticides-in-songbird-s-nests/246730#246730"]maybe you could change the offer on worming to worm egg counts like the equine plans? Likewise various providers offer premium plans including blood/urine testing etc. for those that want[/quote]

Can I ask what the justification for a regular worm egg count would be? I’m not sure I remember ever needing one!

Same question for blood / urine testing in a well dog?

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Rob Loxley — Fri, 28 Feb 2025 08:13:10 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31140/pesticides-in-songbird-s-nests/246723#246723"]

Judith Joyce said:
Likely that health plans as existing now would fall apart if sold without the routine parasiticides in them.

I think they need to go or be altered to not include routine anti-parasitics. They don't really encourage responsible or thoughtful prescribing.

[/quote]

I'm sure there's a market for cheaper health plans without parasite control, or maybe you could change the offer on worming to worm egg counts like the equine plans? Likewise various providers offer premium plans including blood/urine testing etc. for those that want

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Clive Ansell — Thu, 27 Feb 2025 10:29:01 GMT

I've had 2 clients this week questioning the need for routine parasite treatment, and whether or not it is actually needed.

[quote userid="13891" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31140/pesticides-in-songbird-s-nests/246720#246720"]I agree, and I think any vet hesitating to prescribe the anti-parasitics would find themselves between a rock and a hard place.[/quote]

I sometimes advise I don't think they are needed, or not as often, but have never hesitated or refused to prescribe (Yet). Most folk on the plans still take them, they want their pound of flesh usually!

[quote userid="13891" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31140/pesticides-in-songbird-s-nests/246720#246720"]Likely that health plans as existing now would fall apart if sold without the routine parasiticides in them. [/quote]

I think they need to go or be altered to not include routine anti-parasitics. They don't really encourage responsible or thoughtful prescribing.

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Judith Joyce — Thu, 27 Feb 2025 10:00:58 GMT

I agree, and I think any vet hesitating to prescribe the anti-parasitics would find themselves between a rock and a hard place. Already significant conflict developing, I think, between responsible prescribing and manufacturer pressure for bigger, better more use of parasiticides..

Likely that health plans as existing now would fall apart if sold without the routine parasiticides in them.

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Alasdair Hotston Moore — Wed, 26 Feb 2025 20:26:25 GMT

[quote userid="4103" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31140/pesticides-in-songbird-s-nests/246684#246684"]scroll the references you find experimental studies[/quote]

And yet the authors are actually quite cautious in their conclusions ( the scientific authors, not the journalists)

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Mark Holmes — Wed, 26 Feb 2025 16:16:27 GMT

I looked at this a few years ago. The data I found for imidacloprid was that >70% excreted via urine. So regardless if the dog swims you might as well tip 70% of your product into the local river.

I stopped prescribing it.

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Cinzia Gandini — Tue, 25 Feb 2025 12:15:44 GMT

[quote userid="8663" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31140/pesticides-in-songbird-s-nests/246676#246676"]Correlation is not causation. [/quote]

It's also true that if you scroll the references you find experimental studies on direct exposure to most common insecticides in birds so the correlation is the pesticides usually contained in small animal products found in nests and the causation is the exposure to a toxic dose of the same pesticides.

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Clive Ansell — Mon, 24 Feb 2025 10:25:15 GMT

[quote userid="9440" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31140/pesticides-in-songbird-s-nests/246675#246675"]One of the problems here in the new forest is that even after the recent cold spell my dog is picking up ticks daily . Not that imidacloprid is gong to be effective but we really need all year tick cover in this area [/quote]

An example of where there is a good and genuine reason to prescribe appropriate treatment, based on the risk of exposure to ticks and tick borne diseases.

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Clive Ansell — Mon, 24 Feb 2025 10:22:28 GMT

[quote userid="2116" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31140/pesticides-in-songbird-s-nests/246635#246635"]I feel a significant problem is the inclusion of these products in the monthly subscription plans. Owners want (and are encouraged) to get all they can from the plan, and practices buy into this by selling the plans. If parasiticides were not included, they would be less attractive, and I'm sure a lot of owners would vote with their wallets and use them less often. As for 12 monthly injectable flea control....[/quote]

I agree.

I wonder what would happen, where someone is on such a plan, and a veterinary surgeon will not prescribe the anti-parasitics included on the plan, because they do not feel they are clinically indicated?

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Alasdair Hotston Moore — Mon, 24 Feb 2025 09:54:03 GMT

One problem with the newspaper article and theatrical paper is that neither actually shows a causation between finding the products and songbird deaths. Correlation is not causation.

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

janine redman — Sun, 23 Feb 2025 23:32:25 GMT

One of the problems here in the new forest is that even after the recent cold spell my dog is picking up ticks daily . Not that imidacloprid is gong to be effective but we really need all year tick cover in this area

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Eamon McAllister — Sat, 22 Feb 2025 09:03:43 GMT

I recommend “Silent Spring” by Rachel Carson (ISBN 978-0-141-18494-4). It ought to be required reading for any Veterinary Surgeon in practice.

RE: Pesticides in songbird's nests

Cinzia Gandini — Fri, 21 Feb 2025 11:26:41 GMT

[quote userid="11249" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31140/pesticides-in-songbird-s-nests/246640#246640"]oral vs topical treatments reduce the problem[/quote]

Hi Ian,

I don't think there are many studies in dogs about this, but for example I've found that imidacloprid is distributing to the skin in dogs and eliminated via urine and feces so can contaminate hairs. it has been found in hair and saliva in humans. They also include both oral and topical treatments as responsible for it, have a look at the image. But I've found it hard to find a clear description of its distribution in skin, sebaceous glands, saliva and fur in dogs treated orally.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969722066499#bb0065

I also asked chat GPT

Imidacloprid, when given orally to dogs, is absorbed into the bloodstream and distributed throughout the body. It can reach areas like the saliva and sebaceous glands.