Nobivac and Canigen Lepto 2 discontinued

RE: Nobivac and Canigen Lepto 2 discontinued

Rob Loxley — Thu, 07 Nov 2024 23:26:15 GMT

[quote userid="14693" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31074/nobivac-and-canigen-lepto-2-discontinued/245913#245913"]judging by pups in for 2nd vaccs done elsewhere so do many other clinics[/quote]

Who will also be seeing lepto2 vaccines disappearing

Maybe just vanguard 7 left?

RE: Nobivac and Canigen Lepto 2 discontinued

Joyce Whitehead — Thu, 07 Nov 2024 13:36:13 GMT

We have used L4 since it came out (as we do see Lepto cases each year being rural, in unvaccinated or out of date vacc dogs). No reactions of note, we found it stung when we first used it but I haven’t noticed that recently tbh.

We do primary DHPPI/L4 at 8 weeks, DHPPI at 10, get them out a week later avoiding high lepto risk areas, then L4 at 12 weeks. Happy for nurses to do second dose of L4. Now we are rural so see very little parvo or other diseases but this seems to work well for us.

RE: Nobivac and Canigen Lepto 2 discontinued

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 07 Nov 2024 11:51:30 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31074/nobivac-and-canigen-lepto-2-discontinued/245952#245952"]

Lesley Strong said:
The kicker is pups that had 1st L2 1-2weeks ago now having to change to L4 course and then the discussion about when can go out relative risk etc or just do 2nd L2 while we still have some then do L4 course in a year

An L4 vaccine can double up as the second L2, so advice regarding going out, socialising ect would be the same as if a second L2 were given. The second L4 can then be given 4 weeks later for full coverage.

[/quote]

Great minds I just wrote this below then spotted this

So a key question for me is

'Why 4 weeks?'

If L4 contains L2, then there won't be a difference in immune response to the orriginal 2 components.

So could you

DHP + L4 at 8 weeks

DHP + L4 at 10 weeks and get the puppies outsise as after all they are no worse of than DHP + L2

L4 at 14 weeks to cover the newer varients?

RE: Nobivac and Canigen Lepto 2 discontinued

Clive Ansell — Thu, 07 Nov 2024 10:48:28 GMT

Part of an email, from vaccine manufacturer last year.

Key opinion guidance suggests if the inter-vaccine interval of a primary course where 2 doses are required exceeds 6 weeks, then the primary course should be restarted again.

And

For inactivated leptospirosis vaccines in dogs (Nobivac Lepto 2 and L4) there seems to be some consensus (1,3) at least for animals up to 6 months overdue -where two vaccine doses would normally be needed for priming immunity a single dose of vaccine could be considered for a restart.

But

Unable to guarantee vaccine coverage for companion animal vaccines beyond the minimum duration of immunity on the product datasheet, the duration of immunity for each vaccine in our range is noted on the product datasheet. Equally we hold no data beyond the primary course interval stated on the datasheet.

So, off label.

RE: Nobivac and Canigen Lepto 2 discontinued

Clive Ansell — Thu, 07 Nov 2024 10:40:26 GMT

[quote userid="14693" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31074/nobivac-and-canigen-lepto-2-discontinued/245951#245951"]The kicker is pups that had 1st L2 1-2weeks ago now having to change to L4 course and then the discussion about when can go out relative risk etc or just do 2nd L2 while we still have some then do L4 course in a year[/quote]

RE: Nobivac and Canigen Lepto 2 discontinued

Lesley Strong — Thu, 07 Nov 2024 10:33:51 GMT

For adults get 3 month grace period

The kicker is pups that had 1st L2 1-2weeks ago now having to change to L4 course and then the discussion about when can go out relative risk etc or just do 2nd L2 while we still have some then do L4 course in a year

Not happy about pups potentially staying in until 15 wks I think they can go out just keep out of burns and farm areas Nit everyone thinks the same

RE: Nobivac and Canigen Lepto 2 discontinued

Clive Ansell — Thu, 07 Nov 2024 10:15:51 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31074/nobivac-and-canigen-lepto-2-discontinued/245949#245949"]

Lesley Strong said:
Officially 1 day over start again

Even on an annual booster?

[/quote]

General consensus across the practices I work for is a cut off interval of 15 months, after which a restart of Nobivac L4 is advised.

It is less clear cut with primary L4 vaccinations, some practices stick rigidly to the day, but most allow 2-3 days either side of the 28 days. No hard and fast rules. As Michael pointed out, many folk who miss the second L4, go on to miss the 3rd, 4th - - - - n-th as well, Those on health club plans don't give a toss, as the cost is covered.

RE: Nobivac and Canigen Lepto 2 discontinued

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 06 Nov 2024 21:03:46 GMT

[quote userid="14693" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31074/nobivac-and-canigen-lepto-2-discontinued/245948#245948"]Officially 1 day over start again[/quote]

Even on an annual booster?

RE: Nobivac and Canigen Lepto 2 discontinued

Lesley Strong — Wed, 06 Nov 2024 18:29:27 GMT

Officially 1 day over start again but although i dont check other vets notes i suspect the older ones would give more leeway younger maybe less so. I would probably be ok if few days early or a week to 10 days late but if we started to get lots of them being done off label then management might step in. Dont know yet its only just changed. Got to find them slots first and we are even shorter of nurses than vets for 2nd vaccs

And yes full notes explaining discussion and what was decided to cover my not inconsiderable backside

After 40 years at the coalface to paraphrase Reagan trust but verify( cover arse!) when dealing with the glorious British public

RE: Nobivac and Canigen Lepto 2 discontinued

Clive Ansell — Wed, 06 Nov 2024 16:18:13 GMT

[quote userid="14693" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31074/nobivac-and-canigen-lepto-2-discontinued/245941#245941"]The point I was trying to make was we still have to find all these extra appointments which will put extra strain on everyone when appointments are at capacity already[/quote]

I know what you mean.

Where I am working, they use L4 and book both puppy vaccines 28 days apart at the same time. It's not foolproof, because folk forget to attend, go to the wrong clinic, turned away because they are late, or the clinic closes at short notice because of staffing issues, or a first vaccine has been done elsewhere.

If the first L4 is given in the practice, 2nd is usually given by RVN's, so much easier to fit in quickly if the appointment is missed.

I know one one practice where they stick to 28 days or as close as possible, but the cut off is between 21 and 35 days. Not sure where that comes from, but there has to be some flexibility surely. Not all animals and all immune systems are going to react or respond at the same rate anyway.

[quote userid="14693" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31074/nobivac-and-canigen-lepto-2-discontinued/245941#245941"]It will also be against practice protocol which as an employee we are expected to follow[/quote]

What does the protocol say?

I only view protocols as a guide, and ultimately as the MRCVS in charge of the case, the decision is yours to make along with accepting any responsibility if it goes mammaries up. Make good clinical notes if off label.

RE: Nobivac and Canigen Lepto 2 discontinued

Lesley Strong — Wed, 06 Nov 2024 13:42:43 GMT

If they are late I will discuss options and that in my opinion they will be fine BUT it is off label and then we will decide what to do and record in the notes. It will also be against practice protocol which as an employee we are expected to follow so yes potential for management to have something to say about it especially if the client conveniently forgets what was discussed and gets home and worries you have advised them incorrectly.

The point I was trying to make was we still have to find all these extra appointments which will put extra strain on everyone when appointments are at capacity already

RE: Nobivac and Canigen Lepto 2 discontinued

David Mills — Wed, 06 Nov 2024 08:55:22 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31074/nobivac-and-canigen-lepto-2-discontinued/245934#245934"]What do you do if they come in for a 2nd L4 at 26 or 29 days? Genuinely? What do you do if their booster was due on the 1st November, and they come in tomorrow on the 6th? If it's a different answer, why?[/quote]

Remember in covid when the vaccine companies said it was fine to go over by 6 months for a booster? Completely destroyed any trust in their data sheet garbled opinion-based nonsense.

RE: Nobivac and Canigen Lepto 2 discontinued

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 06 Nov 2024 00:10:55 GMT

[quote userid="14693" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31074/nobivac-and-canigen-lepto-2-discontinued/245924#245924"] dontall have the boss luxury of changing the protocol to suit common sense [/quote]

I've never heard the term "boss luxury" before, but I expect all vets to exhibit clinical judgement. That is all I'm saying. We can (or at least should) ALL be able to do this. Professional judgement is what it's called.

[quote userid="14693" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31074/nobivac-and-canigen-lepto-2-discontinued/245924#245924"]we might be in trouble[/quote]

Trouble from whom?

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31074/nobivac-and-canigen-lepto-2-discontinued/245923#245923"] I would say "the data sheet says 4 weeks but in reality a short time either side is unlikely to make much difference". [/quote]

See above.

[quote userid="14693" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31074/nobivac-and-canigen-lepto-2-discontinued/245924#245924"]country pups are tougher[/quote]

Surprised, but I suppose possible. Vast majority of dogs I see are spaniels/labs/terriers/collies, if you have pampered pets then can see the point.

What do you do if they come in for a 2nd L4 at 26 or 29 days? Genuinely? What do you do if their booster was due on the 1st November, and they come in tomorrow on the 6th? If it's a different answer, why?

RE: Nobivac and Canigen Lepto 2 discontinued

Sara Ramsey — Tue, 05 Nov 2024 20:32:34 GMT

We use L4 I'm ok with it, not noticed more reactions but it does sting so we desensitise and give lots of paste.

Ran a check today and we have over 70 clients who could not be persuaded to have L4 and so we stock a small amount of L2. I'm not sure what we will be allowed to do for these clients. Can't see us being able to order in a bi-valent lepto vaccine.

RE: Nobivac and Canigen Lepto 2 discontinued

Anthony Dennison — Tue, 05 Nov 2024 16:19:10 GMT

We still use L2, so yes it is going to be a huge issue over the next 12-14 months!

RE: Nobivac and Canigen Lepto 2 discontinued

Lesley Strong — Tue, 05 Nov 2024 11:00:06 GMT

Yes of course there isnt a kill switch that stops it working on day 29 but we dontall have the boss luxury of changing the protocol to suit common sense And if we do and something goes wrong(anecdote fully lepto vaccd 1yo dog dead of fulminant leptospirosis in last 2 mo) you can be sure we might be in trouble for not following protocol if the client kicks off . So ultimately it is still a PITA to having to find these extra appointment

As far as reactions go we did you didnt so maybe country pups are tougher

RE: Nobivac and Canigen Lepto 2 discontinued

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 05 Nov 2024 00:25:19 GMT

[quote userid="14693" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31074/nobivac-and-canigen-lepto-2-discontinued/245913#245913"]Will be giant PITA as they will need primary course of L4 28 days apart to move over. [/quote]

No, they don't. They still are protected for the two strains, they can choose to add in the other two if they so wish. A number of years ago we used Eurican and they switched from L2 to Lmulti (=L3) and gave us free 2nd lepto jabs, around half the people didn't take us up on the 2nd free one.

[quote userid="14693" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31074/nobivac-and-canigen-lepto-2-discontinued/245913#245913"]We tried L 4 in the past but had lot of reactions [/quote]

We moved over a year ago to Canigen L4 and havn't seen a single reaction as yet. Very happy with it.

[quote userid="14693" url="~/f/clinical-questions/31074/nobivac-and-canigen-lepto-2-discontinued/245913#245913"]clients didnt come back in the correct time for the 2nd one so long wrangling conversation over needing a 3rd one[/quote]

The data sheet says 28d, but we know in real life there is flexibility. I would say "the data sheet says 4 weeks but in reality a short time either side is unlikely to make much difference". They would have to be many weeks late for me to give a 3rd, and I'd worry if they can't get it right for the 2nd will they manage for a 3rd jab? In real life, are people really saying no you can't do the 2nd lepto at day 26 because you leave on holiday in 27 days?! Really?

RE: Nobivac and Canigen Lepto 2 discontinued

Lesley Strong — Mon, 04 Nov 2024 16:26:36 GMT

Yes that would be easier but the high heid yins say canigen L4 !!

RE: Nobivac and Canigen Lepto 2 discontinued

David Mills — Mon, 04 Nov 2024 16:09:54 GMT

Vanguard & Canixin are L2? Though latter is Virbac too so may be going the same way.

RE: Nobivac and Canigen Lepto 2 discontinued

Lesley Strong — Mon, 04 Nov 2024 15:48:54 GMT

We still use L2 and judging by pups in for 2nd vaccs done elsewhere so do many other clinics

Will be giant PITA as they will need primary course of L4 28 days apart to move over. Great when we r struggling for appointments. We tried L 4 in the past but had lot of reactions and about 50% clients didnt come back in the correct time for the 2nd one so long wrangling conversation over needing a 3rd one

So all in all a pain