Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

RE: Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

CAROLINE COOMBS — Sun, 04 Aug 2024 22:16:44 GMT

Have squirted ketamine into a dogs mouth as it attacked the front of its cage....worked really well

RE: Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

Charlotte Marshall — Sun, 21 Jul 2024 15:33:34 GMT

i have used phenobarbitone and diazepam orally for euthanasia for aggressive dogs before. I would give plenty! So minimum 10 phenobarb 60mg tabs.

RE: Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

Philip Taragel — Sun, 21 Jul 2024 08:39:28 GMT

Pole syringe? There are commercial ones but also possible to do DIY.

RE: Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 19 Jul 2024 15:00:56 GMT

We've dealt with a few aggressive XL Bully's being brought into the practice. ACP injectable solution and pentobarbitone in food does make them sleepy enough to get near, then some medetomidine and ketamine quickly jabbed in the rump, that puts them sleepy/immobilised enough to handle with minimal risk.

RE: Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

cairncross — Tue, 16 Jul 2024 13:11:06 GMT

we have built a "crush " essentially a cage door which hinges round to pin dog between it and wall so can inject sc swings away and we can leave the room from behind the swinging door until sleepy ,does require pulleying the dog forward pulley block in wall in front of hinged door . dog probably doesnt like that experience but trying to baklence safety for staff and being as humane as possible

RE: Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

Clive Ansell — Mon, 15 Jul 2024 07:29:48 GMT

I've had some success in the past with a combination of ACP, Gabapentin and Trazadone, although like all combinations not 100% reliable.

Many practices no longer stock ACP tablets, and I believe they are expensive.

RE: Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

Lucy Fleming — Mon, 15 Jul 2024 07:16:19 GMT

I don't really know why people would suggest Sileo in this situation? It's designed to be applied to the mucous membranes and absorbed that way, not fed the the dog. The datasheet even says it becomes ineffective if swallowed and not to feed the dog or give treats within 15 minutes of administration. It's also licensed for "the alleviation of acute anxiety and fear associated with noise in dogs", not for sedation - to my mind not even indicated under the cascade.

RE: Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 14 Jul 2024 21:23:28 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/clinical-questions/30991/pre-euthanasia-oral-sedation-in-a-dangerous-dog/245067#245067"] If we can win with a half ton horse or a bull weighing over a ton, then a 65kg dog wearing a muzzle should be a walk in the park.[/quote]

Absolutely not

Cows are slower and more cumbersome. Given the choice, I’d choose a bull everytime.

Stuff the cascade, I wouldn’t use sileo

Try phenobarbitone and anything else oral first, then use a dog catcher. If not sedated enough, don’t top up, try again another day.Your safety trumps everything.

I speak from experience

Neil

RE: Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

Lesley Strong — Sat, 13 Jul 2024 16:56:34 GMT

Yes we used that once or twice destroying killer dogs at the council kennels where they were loose in runs and lethal to people and no one but you there. Squirt in the mouth as it tried to eat you thru the wire. Hit the deck in seconds then leap thru the gate and pentobarb as fast as you could. Hideous but no one had a firerms licence. Never stopped to consider if I had got some in my mouth or eyes. No H&S in them days!

RE: Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

James Gould — Sat, 13 Jul 2024 14:22:29 GMT

A well meaning rescue centre placed it with her, it had a clear report from a council run pound, but has since proved inaccurate.

The O / rescue centre made the police aware after the 1st incident. The animal is not "under my care", the O has fallen in love with him and is yet to make the decision, but I suspect it is imminent. I am not sure he is welcome back at the vet practice he visited recently. I have a reasonable amount of experience with difficult / wild dogs and am happy to help provided I am satisfied that I can do so safely...

RE: Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 13 Jul 2024 13:01:27 GMT

[quote userid="7292" url="~/f/clinical-questions/30991/pre-euthanasia-oral-sedation-in-a-dangerous-dog"]

65kg XL Bully type, young, lean and muscular, unpredictable and highly aggressive at times, potentially lethal.

The owner can muzzle but he will not tolerate even SQ, and potentially dangerous even when muzzled.

[/quote][quote userid="7292" url="~/f/clinical-questions/30991/pre-euthanasia-oral-sedation-in-a-dangerous-dog/245069#245069"]I run a home visit euthanasia service and this is a home situation with just me and the elderly female owner. [/quote]

What is an elderly lady doing owning such a dog?

Maybe one for the police to destroy asap? what if it were to escape?

RE: Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 13 Jul 2024 12:57:45 GMT

When I was a student, I saw practice where they used Suxamethonium for very aggressive dogs. Only need to inject very small amounts. Barbaric, as it causes paralysis, but the dog would still be conscious and aware.

RE: Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

Lesley Strong — Sat, 13 Jul 2024 12:51:25 GMT

Many years ago. Lethal Rottie in the back of a van and 5ml large animal Immobilon in a pie thru the window. Is it still made. We have someone on police payroll with dart gun licence or ? Local zoo might be worth a try if it is that dangerous.

RE: Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 12 Jul 2024 22:41:34 GMT

[quote userid="7292" url="~/f/clinical-questions/30991/pre-euthanasia-oral-sedation-in-a-dangerous-dog/245074#245074"]I will give it a try sometime. [/quote]

Please don't, you would probably die.

If it's a case of flat enough to PTS then a good whack of ACP tablets will flatten most things, I've found it vastly more reliable than gabapentin etc that are currently in favour. Even if you go oral > inject top up > euth

RE: Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

Rob Loxley — Fri, 12 Jul 2024 22:05:20 GMT

[quote userid="7292" url="~/f/clinical-questions/30991/pre-euthanasia-oral-sedation-in-a-dangerous-dog/245069#245069"]this is a home situation with just me and the elderly female owner[/quote]

Maybe one to pass to someone else?

Have used oral sedation in similar cases but thinking about a few mls of medetom in some food, enough to inject acp/medetom/ket to get IV access. Never tried oral pentobarbital

RE: Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

David Mills — Fri, 12 Jul 2024 21:39:49 GMT

Yes as long as they're eating it works well - the staff used to not feed them for 24h before so they'd wallop anything. Used to try them with ice-cream first to make sure they liked it as well. Also have injected into joints of meat, offal etc.

RE: Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

James Gould — Fri, 12 Jul 2024 13:20:50 GMT

Thanks, that sounds useful. I tried mixing pentoject with some tasty wet food a couple of weeks ago for a "Pocket Bully", but he wouldn't eat it, it does taste awful but the coldness and high value nature of ice cream may make all the difference. I will give it a try sometime.

RE: Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

David Mills — Fri, 12 Jul 2024 11:36:58 GMT

100ml bottle of pentoject mixed into a tub of semi-melted ice cream was how we used to PTS yard guard dogs sometimes. No need for any injections, normally dead after 30-60 minutes if that.

Oral sedatives I've never found that reliable for dogs for in clinic stuff, but if you're going to PTS anyway just max out everything? Phenobarb probably your best bet in that case. Never been that impressed with Sileo.

RE: Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

Paul Cooper — Fri, 12 Jul 2024 09:07:56 GMT

We used to use phenobarbitone in food for the aggressive huge Rottweilers seen in the 1980s. 50 phenobarbital 30mg (yes-fifty of them) in a bowl of tasty wet food, then get the owner to call when the dog was asleep. They would be snoring well after a couple of hours usually. This was a procedure carried out in the owners home, so the dog was not stressed by being in the surgery.

RE: Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

James Gould — Fri, 12 Jul 2024 08:38:25 GMT

Thanks for your input, yes I agree that oral sedation is unreliable / highly variable and I too inject everything. I also do not enter the room unless happy that safe to do so.

If this was in a clinic setting I would just crack on with a trusted / sturdy nurse, but I run a home visit euthanasia service and this is a home situation with just me and the elderly female owner. The idea is to gain enough sedation that with a muzzle will allow IM or SQ sedation. The dog has had a pretty miserable life and the current owner is keen for a peaceful death, I am happy to help as long as I can do it safely for all concerned.

I have recently considered getting a dart gun, but having to get the firearm cert and the potential negative associations / public perspective have put me off so far. I recently had a quote for darting a dog - not my case, recent Eastern European import that had escaped... £1500 + travel.

The paper on Zoletil reports recumbency in 7/8 dogs, so might try that.

RE: Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

Clive Ansell — Fri, 12 Jul 2024 06:08:49 GMT

The overriding priority has to be safety, so If you can't do it safely, dont do it . Get someone wih a dart gun, or the local police to shoot it.

An aggressive 65Kg XLAB could cause serious injury or even death to someone, is it really worth that risk unless you are 100% confident it can be handled safely.

I too have found oral sedatives unreliable in some cases, particularly very highly strung and aggressive dogs, certainly not reliable enough to say a situation is safe because they are sedated.

2 aggressive XLAB in for castration recently, able to inject, and and Medetomidine/Methadone/Ketamine i/m worked well

RE: Pre-euthanasia oral sedation in a dangerous dog?

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 11 Jul 2024 22:52:05 GMT

Sileo is a licenced oral alpha 2 so would be your 1st choice on the cascade.

Personally I've gotten sick of unreliable oral sedation and will inject virtually anything. If we can win with a half ton horse or a bull weighing over a ton, then a 65kg dog wearing a muzzle should be a walk in the park. Personally prefer to squish in a heavy door and inject into rump with someone strong who I trust with a slip lead on the head end. An alternative is to lift off a cage door and use it with your knees to squish the dog against a wall to inject.

Would generally give high doses of medetomidine/ketamine/butorphanol. Did a very angry XL bully recently, the owner said we wouldn't be able to inject, using the door technique.