Are home dental scalers a job for the RCVS?

RE: Are home dental scalers a job for the RCVS?

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 07 Nov 2023 21:02:00 GMT

So returning to topic

Well my faith is partially restored. 2 cases.

Todays was a dog presented with 105 literally hanging, sent in by the groomer (who could have plucked it with fingers) advising the client to visit the vet. Removed and a dental booked to sort the others, everyone happy.

Like other 'professions' good and bad

Neil

RE: Are home dental scalers a job for the RCVS?

cairncross — Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:37:52 GMT

the prices quoted elsewhere were on a scale beyond the usual frustration of cant afford tx/pts but then can afford casket.

RE: Are home dental scalers a job for the RCVS?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 28 Oct 2023 20:30:35 GMT

[quote userid="19228" url="~/f/clinical-questions/30792/are-home-dental-scalers-a-job-for-the-rcvs/242730#242730"]Lastly and actually very concerning 2 calls from non clients who can't afford pts at their own practise[/quote]

Did you see them?

We had a client earlier in the week, who had no money and couldn't afford PTS, so a payment plan was agreed because it was a welfare concern not to PTS at the time. After the deed was done, they announced they wanted ashes returned in a twee little wooden casket, and were suddenly able to fine the additional £250 or so without issue.

RE: Are home dental scalers a job for the RCVS?

cairncross — Sat, 28 Oct 2023 17:34:11 GMT

I'm am seeing similar . This am clinic also had at least 3 nostalgic 1990s westie skin cases " the apoquel wasn't working anymore" (last purchased in June . )

Some nice clients who have " rescued" an enormous bear sized crossbred with chronic skin And arthritis who return every few weeks and can afford about ,$50 I am managing in a limited and moderate way within this . Cursed under my breath this am why did they rescue such a big dog then they gave tea coffee biscuits chocolate from discount store ( in a bag with brachycephalic pups printed on it ) and were so nice about how they couldn't cope without us ?!?

Lastly and actually very concerning 2 calls from non clients who can't afford pts at their own practise

RE: Are home dental scalers a job for the RCVS?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 28 Oct 2023 15:19:49 GMT

[quote userid="8361" url="~/f/clinical-questions/30792/are-home-dental-scalers-a-job-for-the-rcvs/242728#242728"]Searching for a 'shocked' emoji. Clearly I'm living in an alternate universe. [/quote]

Join me there...

[quote userid="8958" url="~/f/clinical-questions/30792/are-home-dental-scalers-a-job-for-the-rcvs/242726#242726"]I would say that it's impossible not to clean teeth without under the gum to make them look clean[/quote]

Ah, there's the thing. It is perfectly possible to make the teeth look "nice and clean" while doing Sweet Fanny Adams for periodontal health. (As, indeed, the veterinary profession used to do – fifty years ago).

I doubt if many dogs would tolerate subgingival scaling without anaesthesia!

If groomers would admit that and owners would understand that, there wouldn't be too much of a problem. Owners can pay for pointless cosmetic faffings if they want to.

RE: Are home dental scalers a job for the RCVS?

Sarah Wheadon — Sat, 28 Oct 2023 13:32:26 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/clinical-questions/30792/are-home-dental-scalers-a-job-for-the-rcvs/242723#242723"]clients have often been estimated in excess of £1000 for routine dentistry at routine first opinion non specialist practices.[/quote]

Searching for a 'shocked' emoji. Clearly I'm living in an alternate universe.

RE: Are home dental scalers a job for the RCVS?

Neil Wheadon — Fri, 27 Oct 2023 14:02:49 GMT

[quote userid="25265" url="~/f/clinical-questions/30792/are-home-dental-scalers-a-job-for-the-rcvs/242724#242724"]That says they consider performing sub-gingival scaling an act of veterinary surgery (as well as extractions). Do you think the cases you are seeing have evidence of sub-gingival scaling?[/quote]

It's tough to say, as that's a pretty fine margin. The one picture I have been seen on a groomers facebook page showed clean teeth (pre and post shown) where 2 teeth that I looked at had evidence of resorption and should have been extracted.

I would say that it's impossible not to clean teeth without under the gum to make them look clean

Thanks for the guidance PDF

Neil

RE: Are home dental scalers a job for the RCVS?

Ben Walker — Fri, 27 Oct 2023 08:54:58 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/f/clinical-questions/30792/are-home-dental-scalers-a-job-for-the-rcvs/242722#242722"]There is guidance from 2013, I can't find it. The lady said 'google it' Any ideas?[/quote]

She’s probably referring to their 2014 statement: https://www.rcvs.org.uk/document-library/a-statement-on-anaesthesia-free-dental-procedures-for-cats-dogs/anaesthesia-free-dental-procedures.pdf

That says they consider performing sub-gingival scaling an act of veterinary surgery (as well as extractions). Do you think the cases you are seeing have evidence of sub-gingival scaling?

As Evelyn says, we can’t do much about groomers selling pointless cosmetic “scaling” services other than educating our clients.

RE: Are home dental scalers a job for the RCVS?

Clive Ansell — Fri, 27 Oct 2023 08:52:04 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/f/clinical-questions/30792/are-home-dental-scalers-a-job-for-the-rcvs/242722#242722"]Interesting but broadly predictable response[/quote]

No surprise there, the usual about as useful as a water soluble tea pot

[quote userid="8958" url="~/f/clinical-questions/30792/are-home-dental-scalers-a-job-for-the-rcvs/242722#242722"]Maybe I should call Panorama?[/quote]

Or Trading standards, or BBC Rogue Traders?

Are they actually doing anything illegal? are they passing themselves off as veterinary professions? are they claiming to be able to carry out dentistry? or just cleaning teeth?

I am seeing a concerning trend of clients not booking patients in for advised dental work, most claim they just cannot afford it at the moment. I am also seeing second opinions where clients have often been estimated in excess of £1000 for routine dentistry at routine first opinion non specialist practices. It is no wonder many will seek a cheaper alternative in desperation.

merryweathers.dog/dental-hygiene

lushdogs.co.uk/ultrasonic-teeth-cleaning/ttps://lushdogs.co.uk/ultrasonic-teeth-cleaning/

RE: Are home dental scalers a job for the RCVS?

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 26 Oct 2023 19:50:23 GMT

So I called the RCVS

Interesting but broadly predictable response

1) Not a job for us, consult Trading Standards.

I guess this for me is the nub of this, clients are being misled and paying money for what?

2) If there is evidence of an act of Veterinary Surgery they would be interested

3) It's about choice, clients will seek advice for an avoidable price. In effect they are filling an ever increasing void, now that is interesting.

4) There is guidance from 2013, I can't find it. The lady said 'google it' Any ideas?

5) I was told to take my concerns to the head vet who oversaw clinical matters. To this I replied that things had changed. 30 years ago there were multivet practices, today many have single or a pair of vets, so in this case it's me.

6) Gather evidence against the groomer. Now the thought of a locum pitting a practice against a groomer just isn't going to happen

7) Finally and I'm not making this up 'Start a social media campaign' I did quote Evelyns reply about Rodentologists, dropping in that aside tumbleweed and Clive, nothing else.

Maybe I should call Panorama?

Neil

RE: Are home dental scalers a job for the RCVS?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 24 Oct 2023 06:15:12 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/f/clinical-questions/30792/are-home-dental-scalers-a-job-for-the-rcvs/242700#242700"] I AM calling the RCVS tomorrow[/quote]

What can they actually do though?

If the folk doing these procedures are not MRCVS, they have no jurisdiction over them, and if it is deemed an act of veterinary surgery then it is one for the police (If criminal) or trading standards (If civil)

As you say though, woe betide anyone that hands out Advocate instead of Stronghold!

RE: Are home dental scalers a job for the RCVS?

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 23 Oct 2023 21:54:17 GMT

Had another in tonight

Vet 'His teeth aren't great'

Client ' They're OK, the groomer checked them 2 weeks ago'

Vet ' But look at them, they haven't been touched and look at all those rotton teeth'

Client ' But she had a certificate and called herself a professional'

Vet 'What certificate, anyone can write a certificate, who audits the certificate, how can they call themselves a professional, the professional is the vet'

Client ' Well I paid her for the examination'

Vet, whilst manually extracting 204 , 'well this one is extremely wobbly, this hasn't happened in 2 weeks'

Client ' When can we schedule a dental?'

Seriously folks, in 32 years of being a vet, this is the most alarming thing I am seeing, not this case, but the fact that it is happening all around us. I've been informed that the BVA and or RCVS are looking into, ultrasonic scaling being an act of veterinary medicine. Surely someone somewhere is doing something, or are we more concerned about animal welfare being impacted because a dog got the wrong wormer?

I AM calling the RCVS tomorrow

Neil

RE: Are home dental scalers a job for the RCVS?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 17 Oct 2023 15:24:00 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/f/clinical-questions/30792/are-home-dental-scalers-a-job-for-the-rcvs"] So is this a job for the RCVS?[/quote]

RCVS can't even manage to deal with "rodentologists" , non-veterinary-surgeons who "treat" guinea pigs' teeth without GA by pinning them down...So I guess not.

The answer of course can only lie with education of the pet-owning public. I suspect that the clients mentioned by both Neil and Clive have now been fairly robustly educated...

RE: Are home dental scalers a job for the RCVS?

Clive Ansell — Mon, 16 Oct 2023 20:41:05 GMT

Yep. had one recently.

A pug with a large swelling just beneath it's left eye. O' states can't be his teeth because recently been "sorted" (descaled) by the groomer. Dog is a vile little sod, and will try and bite anyone within a 5 metre radius, so quite how they descaled his teeth while conscious I don't know.

Once anaesthetised, an obvious fractured carnassial and associated malar abscess. 20 or so teeth extracted too - groomer did a great job, not. Maybe they should stick to grooming, nails and anal glands and leave dentistry to us.

[quote userid="8958" url="~/f/clinical-questions/30792/are-home-dental-scalers-a-job-for-the-rcvs"]So is this a job for the RCVS?[/quote]

Doubtful.

If lay groomers are doing this, then no. The RCVS only has jurisdiction over M'sRCVS.