Estrumate

Re: Estrumate

Edward Jones — Wed, 04 Aug 2010 18:58:12 GMT

On farm use of antibiotics is one issue, and I agree needs to be given more consideration.

But to the thread in hand - dispensation of prostaglandin to a properly trained farmer so they can easily give it at the right time of the programme? Non-issue in my book. Does the BVA have a stance on this, I wonder? Is there a pro-forma that can be used, so when signed shows that the recipient is aware of the H&S implications of a particular drug?

Re: Estrumate

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 04 Aug 2010 17:44:12 GMT

Micheal That's reality, but unfortuneately, it's public perception that really counts-and the public are paranoid about food "safety " scares-look at how BSE was blown up out of all proportion !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Liam Donaldson has a lot of clout, and he wants us banned (as a profession ) from prescribing fluoroquinolones, and cephalosporins.

Agricultural antibiotic prescribing must be tightened up considerably, or we will lose the right to use many drugs-then all animals will suffer

Wynne

Re: Estrumate

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 03 Aug 2010 22:28:12 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]A Panorama programme on the reality of POM-V in many agricultural practices, and plasmid resistance, would make the recent one look like a damp squib-especially if a child had recently died from a resistant strain E coli[/quote]

Ah Wynne we are a mere drop in the ocean when it comes to causing antibiotic resistance.

Re: Estrumate

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 03 Aug 2010 15:38:45 GMT

It's moral blackmail because they know we entered this profession because we care for animals-we could make far more money in other occupations. They know that if they say "If I can't give it, the animal won't be treated," we will find it far more difficult to deny that animal treatment than they will !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It went from veterinary surgeons actually administring all injections, to leaving enough to finish the course with the farmer, to leaving bottles of antibiotic with the farmer, to leaving bottles of prostaglandin/sedative with the farmer

Imagine if Panorama got onto the subject of veterinary surgeons leaving bottles of antibiotics on farms, farmers going into their practices, and buying bottles "off the shelf "-even though POM-V, farmers deciding which food producing animals were to be given antibiotics, and how long a course-do all your farmers give high enough doses, and for long enough, or do they cut courses short, or demand drugs with nil milk withdrwal, so as to sell the milk ?????????????? A Panorama programme on the reality of POM-V in many agricultural practices, and plasmid resistance, would make the recent one look like a damp squib-especially if a child had recently died from a resistant strain E coli

Wynne

Re: Estrumate

Edward Jones — Tue, 03 Aug 2010 14:42:35 GMT

I don't understand how's it's moral blackmail, could you expand what you mean, please? Vets used to make daily visits to administer every i/m injection when prescribing a course of antibiotic to a cow. That would be ridiculous these days. Many farmers and their workers are highly educated and able these days, if we can't move with the times then we'll get (quite rightly) sidelined.

It's only the thin end of the wedge if you're unable to justify individual decisions and need to hide behnd blanket policies

Re: Estrumate

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 03 Aug 2010 11:02:36 GMT

It's so sad that this moral blackmail (for that's what it is ) of our profession is so commonplace, that many no longer recognise it for what it is

Wynne

Re: Estrumate

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 03 Aug 2010 10:58:01 GMT

I don't think it is a fallacy, as I've seen (over 30 years ) the list of drugs which were left on farms grow, and grow, and grow

Wynne

Re: Estrumate

Edward Jones — Mon, 02 Aug 2010 22:27:55 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]t's human nature-give an inch, and they'll take a mile[/quote]

I don't see what you mean - that's only true if you can't put your foot down at all. Farmer's aren't stupid and can understand complex reasoning why one dispensation is okay whilst the other isn't. You seem to be using the 'thin end of the wedge' fallacy. And yes - it's a fallacy .

Re: Estrumate

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 02 Aug 2010 17:01:45 GMT

Cross ref to thread on "incompetant vets " It's human nature-give an inch, and they'll take a mile-and will still say it's your fault for letting them when things go wrong

Wynne

Re: Estrumate

Phil Elkins — Mon, 02 Aug 2010 11:48:55 GMT

[quote user="i am ed"]

I would certainly say it's the vets responsibility to educate and regularly remind whoever might be giving the drug, including pointing out the increased risks for asthmatics, but once that's done why can't the farmer take responsibility for their own safety?

[/quote]

I couldn't have put it better myself. In the modern age of justifying all expenditure and cost, how can vets justify charging a visit and time to give an IM injection of a product which is extremely safe if handled in the correct way. We regularly give PGs out to our clients, following a discussion on its use, the risk of misadministartion to animals, and the risks to human health. All clients then have to sign a consent form stating this. As farm animal vets, our role is not just to fix animals, it should be to maintain health and productivity of herd/flocks through education and knowledge.

Re: Estrumate

Ashley Rubens — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:37:14 GMT

All in favour, never had such a good excuse to visit farms and do a bit more than just hand out drugs - farmers percieve the benefit of micotil enough to warrant veterinary attendance AND once your there it's an awful lot easier to discuss husbandry / diagnostics / prevention than down the phoneline - I'm sure in the long run this going to save the good farmers money, and the others are happy enough with nuflor / draxxin / oxytet!

As for estrumate - at my last practise we did hand it out to a trusted few, with signed disclaimers etc, no more dangerous than many other things on farm, i guess the concern some people have is the guilt (or blame?) if something does go wrong!

Re: Estrumate

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 16 Sep 2009 17:22:45 GMT

All in favour of it being restricted, because it gives us back control

Wynne

Re: Estrumate

Edward Jones — Mon, 14 Sep 2009 14:30:04 GMT

I'm not convinced by the health and safety justification for not dispensing prostaglandins to clients. After all, farmers do dangerous things every day.

There's a similar issue with micotil, except of course we have no choice in that matter. What are people's thought's about micotil being restricted? Reasonable or unreasonable?

Re: Estrumate

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 16:20:22 GMT

I'm not really talking to myself (more of a PS )or going "off thread "(or not too much ), but have any of you read David Bartram's letter in this weeks VR "Limiting antimicrobial resistance ".Sir Liam Donaldson is trying to stop us using either fluoroquinolones, or cephalosporins. This would be a massive handicap to those of us who use these antimicrobials responsibly. IMHO it is deplorable that drug companies openly advertise POM-V products in the farming press. I would be interested to know if those of you currently in farm practice are pressurised to prescribing these as a 1st line treatment, due to e.g no milk withdrawal time. It all seems to be part of the same problem. Unfortunately, I can't see an easy answer

Wynne

Re: Estrumate

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:21:58 GMT

"If we can't reserve a drug with a known safety problem what stops us from becoming drug salesmen rather than sources of advice ?"

Legally it's very easy Estrumate is POM-V so the decision whether or not to prescribe , and how to administer, is legally the veterinary surgeon's, not the owners.

Practically, it's another matter. Fewer and bigger farm units mean the financial consequences to the practice of alienating a client are greater, especially if another practice is prepared to interpret that wooly phrase "animals under my care " more leniantly. In addition there's the moral blackmail "If you don't give the prostaglandin, I'm not paying the pigman overtime , so the sow won't be supervised " "If you don't give the prostaglandin, and the calf is too big, I'll send the cow to the knackers "

Horrible position to be in, and one of the reasons why although my background was originally mixed practice, I wouldn't like to go back to doing farm work. If an asthmatic suffered a fatal reaction, I'm not sure the coroner would consider the disclaimer form adequate, nor the victim's family !!!! I'm a bit ashamed to read "the older vets do hand it out " They are my generation !!!!

Wynne

Re: Estrumate

Neil Paton — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 18:10:47 GMT

I have never worked in a practice that handed it out until now. We are having a debate about that very topic in the practice. The Older vets do hand it out in varying quantities. The younger do not (including me).

However what we are quietly going to do is keep a stock of consent forms and make sure that any client that absolutely insists signs for a measured dose and returns used bottles/syringes. Hopefully that will discourage all but the most annoying.

On a related thought if we can't reserve a drug with a known safety problem what stops us from becoming drug salesmen rather than sources of advice?

Re: Estrumate

Robert Whiteford — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 22:35:29 GMT

We resisted handing it out for a while for human safety reasons and possible mis-use on pregnant cows causing abortion. . . . . . .but pigmen need prostaglandin to induce farrowing during office hours so the human safety side of it is an accepted risk!?

Then , what with access to information on the internet, education and free prescriptions we felt obliged to hand it to dairy farms also (with a disclaimer re abortion!)

Sucklers need it too for inducing calving when a relative oversized foetus is expected.....and for misalliance.

Difficult to retain drug in vet only administration I would say.