Vets are to blame for brachycephalics

RE: Vets are to blame for brachycephalics

Dinu Catilina — Sat, 09 Jul 2022 11:04:57 GMT

[quote userid="6897" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/30348/vets-are-to-blame-for-brachycephalics/238028#238028"]The same things happened a long time ago with equine dentistry. Back in the bad old days, the average vet doing first opinion equine work carried a single rusty old cast iron tooth rasp in the back of the vehicle - and that was it. Then a couple of lay people went to the USA and learned new ideas - and came back with an array of fancy and shiny equipment - and the horse owners lapped it up. 'Equiine dentists' had appeared on the scene. The vets then realised they had been left behind and had to get their collective finger out and catch up.[/quote]

I met Gary England last week at the European Small Animal reproduction society congress and he gave the exact same example. If we don't do it, some else will and not as well as we can.

RE: Vets are to blame for brachycephalics

bob lehner — Sat, 09 Jul 2022 10:47:30 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/30348/vets-are-to-blame-for-brachycephalics/238017#238017"]If there is a gap someone will fill it.[/quote]

Agree - if there is a demand for veterinary services then the profession should adapt to provide it.

The same things happened a long time ago with equine dentistry. Back in the bad old days, the average vet doing first opinion equine work carried a single rusty old cast iron tooth rasp in the back of the vehicle - and that was it. Then a couple of lay people went to the USA and learned new ideas - and came back with an array of fancy and shiny equipment - and the horse owners lapped it up. 'Equiine dentists' had appeared on the scene. The vets then realised they had been left behind and had to get their collective finger out and catch up.

RE: Vets are to blame for brachycephalics

Ex Member — Sat, 09 Jul 2022 10:42:24 GMT

This sums up the crux of my presentation beautifully.

RE: Vets are to blame for brachycephalics

Alistair Graham-Evans — Sat, 09 Jul 2022 10:08:11 GMT

I certainly hope I don’t patronise them and recognise that many genuinely love their animals. Before I am pounced on I do recognise that there are also terrible people who are just financially driven and devoid of morals.

Pleased you are making some progress - lots of little steps!

There is a tendency to label breeders as one group.

We don’t label vets as one group- there are the good, bad and ugly amongst any crowd!

RE: Vets are to blame for brachycephalics

Dinu Catilina — Sat, 09 Jul 2022 08:30:07 GMT

[quote userid="6765" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/30348/vets-are-to-blame-for-brachycephalics/238021#238021"]We do very little reproduction work - maybe the breeders don't like the advice I give, or our fees. [/quote]

I think you are right. We hear this many times, breeders coming to me for a second opinion because I am one of them and understand them. My opinion is almost always the same as their normal, local vet but breeders accept it easier. In UK at least there is a large rift between vets and breeders (not all vets and not all breeders) with reciprocal distrust.

I find that honest brutal truths are accepted easier if I don't patronise the breeder and if we work together. An example: Bull Terriers were never tested for luxating patella's before breeding. I started doing free of charge testing at club shows where all dogs entered were tested and we found 40-50% of the dogs present affected to some degree. We continued this for a few years and it dropped to about 25%. Now all stud dogs are advertised as patella tested.

It's the same with Bulldogs. They are getting better as a breed because of the BOAS scheme and the bulldog breed council health tests. They're not perfect but they are better.

RE: Vets are to blame for brachycephalics

Alistair Graham-Evans — Sat, 09 Jul 2022 05:59:15 GMT

Wow!

I have no idea how this leaped out from my comments! I am also not sure when I blamed the profession although I do happen to disagree with many aspects of reproduction assistance provided by some vets. If I criticise some aspects of our profession it will be obvious as when I have been critical in the past of some poor management.

In North Queensland we have some clients who buy brachycephalic breeds unseen from cooler climes ( they are flown up from Victoria) and then spend much of the dog's life trying to enable them to have have a happy life and avoid heat stroke. I attempt to advise them and do what I can to assist surgically and then spend a lot of time advising that my surgical efforts will not help if they allow the dog to become obese. I do not tell them they are stupid getting that breed - just explain the situation and how to improve it (quite bluntly). Likewise I assist Sharpei owners and inform them that their dog will suffer if they do not allow me to correct the entropion. I explain the abnormal genetics of the dog to them.

My reference to breed standards referred to the crazy showing situation where, for example dogs with luxating patellas were given first prize. I think we should try and explain why this is bad , although our advice will often fall on deaf ears. If I think a dog should not be bred from I will tell the owner and explain why. We do very little reproduction work - maybe the breeders don't like the advice I give, or our fees. We have no interest in artificial breeding of dogs.

I don't see how banning a breed will be effective - and where do you draw the line? It would be unlikely to be enforced anyway.

So I don't condone poor breeding practices but try and engage with owners in case they feel like listening to my advice ( a few of these people do exist) - surely an attempt at educating is part of our role? So I try and fix shit and attempt to reduce it's production!

RE: Vets are to blame for brachycephalics

Dinu Catilina — Fri, 08 Jul 2022 18:12:49 GMT

This is also my opinion, that we, the vets, have a big part to play in today's mess.

UK has one of the largest number of pets/capita in the world. UK has also a big show scene and a LOT of breeders. UK has the lowest number of small animal reproduction vets in Europe.

If there is a gap someone will fill it.

About 40% of our work is reproduction and the rest is general practice with some ortho, exotics and endoscopy. We see the odd breeder but many are reasonable. Even some american bully people started health testing with hip and elbows and heart testing. It's work in progress and it's slow but things do change.

Banning things doesn't work. Take example from prohibition and the war on drugs.

Some countries will now ban breeding brachys. Great, clients will just buy from abroad. Zero difference.

RE: Vets are to blame for brachycephalics

Bob Russell — Fri, 08 Jul 2022 11:53:39 GMT

Of course the problem is largely with the owners.

Dogs are seen as fashion accessories on social media. We must have one of those because they are cute and celebrity X has one.

Nobody asks the veterinary profession until it is too late. We have lots registered but none are bred from which tends to show our clients have common sense. I don't see much alienation there.

Criminality, greed and profit is driving the fertility so-called clinics. Until someone enforces the law they will continue. Illegal blood testing, illegal medicine administration will continue.

RE: Vets are to blame for brachycephalics

Ex Member — Fri, 08 Jul 2022 11:01:15 GMT

Here are two studies that look at owner motivation

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0219918

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0237276

We are also talking about 2 different populations here. Dogs owned by criminals, and dogs owned by everyone else. I am not talking about criminals

What I was talking about is the big standard owner who wants to breed their dog. Because of our messaging around these dogs will not come near us as “all vets hate brachycephalics”, their distrust of us comes through in one of those papers. So what do they do? Engage with clinics that will make them feel welcomed, who have filled a gap in the market. My main point was what we have done so far isn’t working, demand isn’t going away whatever we do, so maybe we should reconsider our approach

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/30348/vets-are-to-blame-for-brachycephalics/238006#238006"]I think the article, talk, and everything since from Alistair and Danielle simply reinforces the impression that these are people that are out of touch and bent on a virtue signalling “solution”[/quote]

It’s Daniella. Also, I’m not out of touch, I’m a first opinion GP vet is practice, having worked in both affluent and non affluent areas, I see these dogs all the time. I’m not virtue signalling, whatever that means, I’m reflecting on whether or not we can do things differently and get a different outcome. I’m considering not only breed specific scientific evidence, but also the social science evidence around motivations and responses.

I don’t believe banning would work for a number of reasons: how do you define extreme/brachycephalic? Who will enforce it? What about other issues like the presence of elbow dysplasia in some large breeds? Are we going to ban them too?

RE: Vets are to blame for brachycephalics

David Mills — Fri, 08 Jul 2022 09:43:06 GMT

The profession has a terrible record of “working with breeders” to improve genotype and phenotype. Look at the broken Labradors, German Shepherds, Brachys still wandering around. Decades of collusion and zero health benefits. It is a stain on our profession.

Anyone who has spent any time whatsoever with Frenchie and other breeders could tell you exactly what Bob has.

we hear this a lot as a charity about education mainly from those with no first person experience of it. It’s a two way process - someone must want to learn in order to be taught. But and here’s the crux it sounds lovely - everyone working together for the good of animals. It sounds virtuous, inclusive and rather good all round.

Unfortunately it’s an absolute nonsense. This is an industry, often linked to criminality, fraud, etc. There is no chance.

“How do we know if we don’t try?” Because we do. The profession has been complicit in breeding genetically bad animals for decades.

I think the article, talk, and everything since from Alistair and Danielle simply reinforces the impression that these are people that are out of touch and bent on a virtue signalling “solution” to this. Whilst simultaneously blaming the profession on some level. It is remarkable. Damaging. And yes (cue censorship again) infinitely patronising.

It is everywhere. I’ve lost track of the number of times I’ve asked specialists if they insist on neutering these animals when coining in the BOAS cash and answers range from no we don’t want to prolong the GA (nonsense - go and learn how to spay quicker then), we can’t force owners (nonsense - have you got any professional ethics?) to we recommend it (about 10pc do agree apparently).

The only workable solution, that other more welfare focused nations have embraced, is to ban these dogs. The industry is too far gone to make any inroads, and claiming we can is a triumph of ego over reality and only serves to alienate the profession dealing with these dogs day in day out. You really have no idea and it isn’t your place to opine criticising your colleagues.

Alistair and Danielle - you are welcome to come to a charity clinic anywhere in the country whenever you like and rest your theory. Make sure you bring a scalpel for the pyos we see in these dogs after their first season.

RE: Vets are to blame for brachycephalics

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 08 Jul 2022 09:22:43 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/30348/vets-are-to-blame-for-brachycephalics/238000#238000"]To have a vet spouting this nonsense is far from helpful.[/quote]

Bob, have you actually read the article?

I think it is unhelpful just to denounce something as nonsense without explaining what specifically you think is nonsense.

I think Daniella has raised a really interesting point.

From my perspective, there has been a LOT of stuff put out in the media about how bad brachycepalics are, over the past few years, from the RVC, BVA and others.

From memory, a lot has been evidenced-based stuff about how brachycephalics suffer from more diseases etc.

Daniella contends that this has alienated owners. My first thought is to ask what evidence there is that owners feel alienated?

(I'm not disputing, just interested to know whether there is evidence of that, because it goes to the crux of whether the current strategy is failing or not)

I know a handful of pug / frenchy lovers, and the interesting thing is that I can never get them to understand that brachycephalics are bad, because a) it's already too late, they've bought one and invested emotionally, and/or b) they think the problem isn't with their brachy, but with other more severely affected animals (which is failing to see the bigger picture, which is that anyone who buys one is just encouraging others to do the same).

So I think there is a lot of sense in what Daniella is saying. The problem isn't the dog, it's the owner. And quite possibly she is right ... if not that owners are alienated, quite possibly that banging on about the medical issues may not be the best way to address the problem.

RE: Vets are to blame for brachycephalics

Ex Member — Fri, 08 Jul 2022 08:47:58 GMT

Please read what I actually said in the article and why I said it.

RE: Vets are to blame for brachycephalics

Bob Russell — Fri, 08 Jul 2022 08:31:04 GMT

My immediate response to the thread title is boll+cks!

Vets are not involved in any way until we have to deal with the fall out.

Many of these people get their information from other sub-human primates on social media. Vets are seen to be expensive where a cheap option is available. Many of the people involved probably do not know where their nearest vet is. If they do then it will be the cheapest 'budget' practice because low price equates to high quality in their eyes.

We are not responsible because we are not involved because the Facebook brigade already know more than we do!

To have a vet spouting this nonsense is far from helpful.

RE: Vets are to blame for brachycephalics

Ex Member — Fri, 08 Jul 2022 08:13:49 GMT

A lot of what you have said is absolutely true, but my focus was on the wider issue.

Comms around brachys from the profession talk about all the health problems, which studies show owners are very aware of. But they love these dogs for other reasons and build very strong emotional bonds to the breed/dog. The crux of what I was getting at was our messaging needs to encompass the “why” people get these dogs, so they don’t feel like we hate them all. If they don’t feel alienated, they are more likely to tell us in passing they want to breed their dog, which can start the conversation around respiratory function grading first, choosing of the dog ect. But above all, if we are more open with the way we engage with the owners, they will trust us that when we say “actually, your particular dog shouldn’t be bred because x/y/z”, we are saying it because you care about their dog, not because you hate the breed.

RE: Vets are to blame for brachycephalics

cairncross — Fri, 08 Jul 2022 07:50:47 GMT

Thank you, for the exposure sorry you get targeted by a very tetchy profession under much duress

I don't think we have lost these breeders I don't think they existed until recently I am 20 years qualified and don't recall a time when they existed then went elsewhere.

I am not sure where we could get involved I feel the profession on the ground needs protection rather than advice to intervene , threats of violence and on social media didn't really exist either a few years ago.

We are left with a moral dilemma of being presented at 3am with a bitch in distress with owners with no experience whatsoever in the complexities and subtleties of rearing or caring . If we get involved it is inevitable we will on the law of averages have a complication at some point and then all falls on our head. Threats, blackmail and social media slurrs. These cases have multiplied workload significantly and we have had no increase in vet supply to cope yet we absolutely must provide care .

I also cannot see how we can take on more roles or responsibilities when were not coping with what we already have. The practises touching mine are ,West closing in 1 week no longer has vets North posted 4 new job adds this week South last month sent its farm and equine letters saying no longer providing and no longer doing its own ooh , South East no longer accepting new clients as of 2 weeks. That is complete turmoil to cope with when we are short .

Food , mortgage fuel transport is costing clients many hundreds more per month and here average disposable income was less than 100 pounds. We have fewer vet hours and much less money to provide care . How do we take on other roles?

RE: Vets are to blame for brachycephalics

Ex Member — Fri, 08 Jul 2022 07:11:32 GMT

I was involved in a bbc documentary looking at the pyramid scheme you’re taking about, and at the talk there was a person from SSPCA who was talking about the organised crime aspect you’re eluding to. Those sorts of clinics were set up to deal with XL Bullies primarily in the original instance, but other brachy breeders have now gone there because the clinics have filled a gap in the market for other breeders. Whilst the XL bullies account for a big financial aspect, they account for a small volume of the actual dogs bred. I was talking about the frenchies and so on, and how they have gone to these clinics because over time we have lost their trust for various reasons as the piece sets out and others not covered. I simply suggested we should reflect on what has and hasn’t worked in terms of communication with these owners, and the evidence with regards to this, because they go to these clinics as they feel welcome there. Ultimately we can keep shouting about how bad brachycephalic dogs are, and watch as the numbers keep rising, or we can look at the evidence about motivation for brachy owners and approach it differently.

RE: Vets are to blame for brachycephalics

cairncross — Fri, 08 Jul 2022 06:57:17 GMT

Our microchip/database company has significant data on these had interesting conversation about it . They are inundated with breeders trying to use microchip as proof of ownership when the purchaser stops paying the instalments on the pup, they also like we are well aware of the pyramid scheme of things out there whereby breeders sell bitches cheaply from the litter with the deal that they will give the original breeder some % or all of the 1st litter resulting in them having more bitches to distribute this way and the second breeder/owner then immediately breeding the bitch again to get their return on the money and start their own pyramid.

This may sound extreme but at the peak of things our caesarians nearly always had 2 cars waiting outside the current owner and the previous breeder making sure no one fiddled how many pups/bitches in litter.

For us this caused /causes all hell as the money involved is huge and when something goes wrong as it will with such imperfect biology and inexperienced clients presented with the complex and subtle needs of reariing caring their is someone owing vast sums to a nepharious local character which they have zero hope of raising themselves so vet must be to blame and pay be threatened with violence the law etc( database rep reports the same associated threats)

By running the pyramid scheme the breeder never has too many dogs at their address to come under scrutiny as a breeder need registering with authorities etc.

Now that the economy is tanking we see some avoidance of caesarians we are being presented later with some attempts at manual removal, a suspicion that oxytocin is floating about out there as wombs seem ridged and leathery when we get them (maybe it's just delay).

On numbers I suspect from experience and I guess microchips possibly could evidence the drive in numbers dies not come from those likely be influenced by the profession but those not just ignoring medical advice but the advice not to enter into financial agreements with the types running these pyramid type operations.

The one pre birth at least intervention we used to have was pregnancy scans however these are very infrequent . We have not been priced out of existance we remain cheaper than the "fertility clinics" but we don't give numbers , everyone wants numbers they are taking deposits on the basis of scan numbers some times. We all know how much of the pregnancy scan consult was taken up by why we don't give numbers rather than more significant advise.

I don't know how many "fertility clinics " there are but if they are to be be replaced by responsible veterinary ones or vets actively seeking this work in practise , how many more vets do we need to replace them ? Every practise I know is still advertising fir multiple vets just for the work we have some are operating with no vets affordable care for basic things dissappears at 6pm for most pets and some of our care is dependant on 40 to 60 % locums where would the time come from.? If there was a specialist veterinary centre and it charged similar to dedicated ooh ,orthopaedic dermatology etc I doubt it would compete with the current clinics.

RE: Vets are to blame for brachycephalics

Alistair Graham-Evans — Fri, 08 Jul 2022 06:56:11 GMT

I used to think we could only influence extreme trends by working with those determining breed standards but there is a new generation that are breeding just to make money. Had a client the other day who had paid $5000 each for a bitch and dog French Bulldog but couldn’t afford the vaccines apparently. That venture is not going to end well!

Clients rarely ask for advice prior to buying a puppy. However I agree that there are some genuinely good breeders out there and we shouldn’t condemn people because they want to breed dogs - we should work with them as much as possible. However large numbers are deaf to any advise.

RE: Vets are to blame for brachycephalics

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 08 Jul 2022 06:55:39 GMT

Ed's note: I have edited the original post because it was unnecessarily snide, played the person not the argument, and didn't do anything to further the debate.

An interesting subject, though, so I have kept the link and am reposting other people's replies so far.