Bitch spay timing and pseudopregnancy

RE: Bitch spay timing and pseudopregnancy

janine redman — Wed, 01 Jun 2022 23:03:08 GMT

We usually spay 4mths post season and at that stage rarely see patients with FP . Went through a phase of spaying 3-4 weeks post season but found a higher rate of intra operative haemorrhage and oozing so went to advising spaying 3 months after the season finishes . People usually on,y remember when the season starts so it ended up with 4 mths after season to make it easier to explain . Have definitely had bitches start lactation if spayed during FP , so if they come in at any time I discuss pros and cons and would be happy to spay if owners aware of possible complications

RE: Bitch spay timing and pseudopregnancy

Lindsey Edwards — Sun, 29 May 2022 21:37:04 GMT

Yes, I have always beenlead to believe it is the sudden drop of P4 in luteal phase that triggers prolactin/lactation. At or after 3months, physiological regression should have started?

RE: Bitch spay timing and pseudopregnancy

Thomas Johnson — Sat, 28 May 2022 07:27:53 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/30302/bitch-spay-timing-and-pseudopregnancy/237320#237320"]

Andreas Ege said:
Interestingly, spaying can start lactation in some bitches (or maybe it just coincided?), I had one that definitely was not lactating at time of neutering but was at first post-op check. Resolved without treatment. Think there's some publications about it, if I remember right.

Initiation of lactation in bitches is partially triggered by the fall in progesterone and the rise in prolactin. When you spay you remove the source of progesterone (the CL on the ovary), but the prolactin is pituitary. This is where the theoretical risk comes from

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I spayed a bitch earlier this week that had a little mammary enlargement but no milk, at the post-op check 2 days later she had a lot of milk, and the owner had noticed significant behavioural changes at home, very unsettled, nesting, carrying toys around. If she just had milk production but no behavioural changes I wouldn't have treated, but in this case I have prescribed cabergoline.

RE: Bitch spay timing and pseudopregnancy

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 27 May 2022 12:24:11 GMT

[quote userid="13609" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/30302/bitch-spay-timing-and-pseudopregnancy/237318#237318"]Interestingly, spaying can start lactation in some bitches (or maybe it just coincided?), I had one that definitely was not lactating at time of neutering but was at first post-op check. Resolved without treatment. Think there's some publications about it, if I remember right.[/quote]

RE: Bitch spay timing and pseudopregnancy

Andreas Ege — Fri, 27 May 2022 11:19:51 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/30302/bitch-spay-timing-and-pseudopregnancy/237310#237310"]

Yes and I stand by what I said - crack on. Don't care if milky, bleeding, pregnant, mated, the surgery is broadly the same. Have spayed many at caesers and if you want to worry about big blood vessels, that’s the time. Just do it.

Interesting how the nurses and younger vets seem reluctant. Discussions of 'greater' risk, but no one can point me at anything scientifically showing it.

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I've always been wondering as well and never found any convincing evidence. I tend to stick with the 3 months and not neutering in phantom preg, pretty much because it was practice policy in every practice I ever worked or locumed for, though I usually tell people personally I wouldn't mind.

Never found the bleeding risk argument that convincing, as you say we do spay during caesars and that's been the only time I almost got into trouble with a bitch's blood pressure dropping down to 40. We also spay pyos and that's been the only case where I almost got into trouble with ovarial bleeding when my ligature just cheese-wired through.

Interestingly, spaying can start lactation in some bitches (or maybe it just coincided?), I had one that definitely was not lactating at time of neutering but was at first post-op check. Resolved without treatment. Think there's some publications about it, if I remember right.

RE: Bitch spay timing and pseudopregnancy

Arek Domagala — Fri, 27 May 2022 10:22:32 GMT

Totally agree. Over 20 years of spaying at any stage of the cycle and never, not once had any problems. Not really fussed if in season, straight after or just before.

In regards to phantom : due to the amount of milk I do sometimes give galastop for 5 days or so then spay. But not always to be honest. It depends of the amount of milk and size of the mammary glands.

RE: Bitch spay timing and pseudopregnancy

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 26 May 2022 22:54:06 GMT

Interesting how the nurses and younger vets seem reluctant. Discussions of 'greater' risk, but no one can point me at anything scientifically showing it.

(and I really don't enjoy an in season cat spay......)

RE: Bitch spay timing and pseudopregnancy

Yantha Smyth — Thu, 26 May 2022 21:12:13 GMT

I have seen a fair few turn up at 3 months still lactating, and I don’t tend to reach for cabergoline unless extenuating circumstances. I have seen dramatic lactation and behavioural change post-Spey in luteal phase when there was no sign of pseudo pregnancy pre-op!

Im inclined to think that the 3 months stems from being when most will have resolved pseudopregnant state by, and mid-way between seasons, assuming 6-monthly… but wonder if perhaps a 4 month guidance would work better?

RE: Bitch spay timing and pseudopregnancy

Beats — Thu, 26 May 2022 18:47:09 GMT

I've never understood this either Lucy. I never used to be fussy about when I spayed bitches and I've never knowingly suffered any freak results.

I can't kick though that there are vets who swear that they have seen big problems in isolated cases with spaying in the "wrong" (i.e. 4 weeks to 12 weeks post oestrous) time, regarding problematic, dramatic lactation that took gallons of cabergoline to resolve.

i asked about this a couple of years as well: Inducing pseudopregnancy by spaying in progesterone phase - should I be worried? (vetsurgeon.org)

RE: Bitch spay timing and pseudopregnancy

George Cooper — Thu, 26 May 2022 16:46:57 GMT

Not "evidence" per se, but a lifetime of speying as and when. Usual advice was to allow pup/bitch to come into season and use THAT as the trigger to get booked in for 4 weeks after. Anything longer and the owner would 'forget' to get her done. Rarely if ever did we see a FP with milk, and even more rarely did it develop. Then - like you - I was finding that the nurses were sending them back out if there was any sign of swelling or discharge.

Ultimately we took to doing any bitch at any time just to get them done, and I must say that even in full season, the operation was just as easy/difficult/straightforward as the surgeon performing the act. And again - vanishingly few issues post op, or during op. (Always barring the use of catgut of course, and an over-tightened vicryl knot that caused a "bubble"!)

As ever it is one of those balancing acts between expedience versus "perceived" risk.

RE: Bitch spay timing and pseudopregnancy

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 26 May 2022 16:41:35 GMT

The luteal phase is 2-3 months so in theory you're better to wait longer. But then when we spaid in shelters in Romania we did everything when we got them, in season, out of season, pregnant, luteal phase, you name it.

RE: Bitch spay timing and pseudopregnancy

Lucy Fleming — Thu, 26 May 2022 15:23:42 GMT

Thank you Dinu - I was thinking more of spaying earlier than 3 months post season....so anything from about a month post? Would progesterone still be elevated then? And would it matter if it was? Hoping to avoid the whole send-them-home-with-cabergoline situation completely!

RE: Bitch spay timing and pseudopregnancy

Helena Rymaszewska — Thu, 26 May 2022 12:38:32 GMT

I don't like treating them medically(unless it's essential) due to the cost of cabergoline ....

RE: Bitch spay timing and pseudopregnancy

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 26 May 2022 12:07:34 GMT

At 3 months post season their progesterone will be basal, it's just their prolactine that's a bit high. There is only anecdotal evidence that if you spay them at this stage the lactation gets worse. We also send them home, hard to fight the nurses to keep them in, but it's extremely frustrating.

An option would be to dispense a week of cabergoline and then just do them regardless of what comes out of their nipples.