canine fertility clinics

RE: canine fertility clinics

grumpyoldman — Mon, 04 Apr 2022 14:41:33 GMT

I see these things as a kind of PDSA for breeders . It takes away a section or sub class of client out of your waiting room . They are merely seeking to reduce costs on what is essentially an underground industry . The only way to stop it is via HMRC . Everything will be Cash as with the puppy Sales . The best approach is via the breed registrations in the KC supplements and the Sales ads on Scum Tree and other sites . Then you add up the earnings and give them a tax bill plus penalties . After a few bankruptcies and house repossessions the risk will outweigh the benefits and they will move onto another get rich quick scheme .
I don’t actually want these people in the practice , they inevitably Ming and smell bad argue with the nurses and receptionists perv on the new grads or threaten them . They are criminals really . That’s maybe why we have waved them on their merry little way .

RE: canine fertility clinics

Bob Russell — Fri, 01 Apr 2022 08:58:02 GMT

I would be surprised if the vet at the airport would pass this. The airline may have something to say about it as well.

Surprised how 'unsurprised' I am that these are being bred!!

RE: canine fertility clinics

Coopers Wamae — Thu, 31 Mar 2022 14:18:06 GMT

Partial Conversation on the subject

https://mobile.twitter.com/JemimaHarrison/status/1509219796528898048

The public is outraged. What is the role of the college in all of this?

RE: canine fertility clinics

Bob Russell — Wed, 23 Mar 2022 15:35:51 GMT

It appears that the dog that killed the 17 month old child was an American Bull terrier bought to make money as a stud dog at £2000 a litter.

A pile of dog poo has more brains than some human beings.

As grandfather to a four year old and a one year old I cannot even think about what the family are going through.

RE: canine fertility clinics

Bob Russell — Tue, 22 Mar 2022 11:13:34 GMT

The bulk of these so called clinics are working completely underground. Vets are never involved. It seems to be run on Facebook or similar.

There is little doubt these are run illegally as blood samples are generally required.

This system allows unchallenged and uncontrolled breeding of puppies often with major health issues. They seem to be run by dodgy 'beauticians' with a weekend of training at some even more dodgy training camp.

Vets will never get involved with this market because the so called breeders know better. The buyers are often ill informed, some pig ignorant.

Any breeder turning over more than a £1000 a year is considered commercial and should be licenced.

We do not get involved at this level because we are not invited.

It is a subculture that has developed closely linked with social media.

RE: canine fertility clinics

Dinu Catilina — Sat, 19 Mar 2022 23:32:40 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/30232/canine-fertility-clinics/236667#236667"]

What nonsense.

[/quote]

With all due respect that's bullshit. But I do agree with you with the three layers to some extent.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/30232/canine-fertility-clinics/236667#236667"]There are three layers of breeders. Responsible ones, interested in good stock, pride in their business etc, who for the most part will listen to advice and work with their vet. These will access appropriate services.[/quote]

They also need education especially the geriatric ones. Responsible and well intended means nothing when they are not informed and this where an engaging nonpatronising and nonjudgemental vet can help.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/30232/canine-fertility-clinics/236667#236667"]the mini vets, some interest in their stock but primarily financial. Will churn out bulldogs and say they’re trying to improve the breed but they’re not, not really. These are the opinionated ones talking shite to buyers and fishing out antibiotics etc. Will normally have a take vet to wave through unnamed vaccine certs etc. Will use the fertility clinics. Complain about vet prices etc. The breeders no one wants, understandably.[/quote]

There is a large group of purely financial "good" breeders. They don't care about show quality in any shape or form. They will breed dogs to their standard and do all the possible health tests under the sun. Not because they're good at heart but it's good for business and actually not that expensive. In a world where more puppy buyers look for health tested parents they will sell more expensive than others. Their target is the British middle class. They live from dogs and will work with their vets because a well managed stock will produce more puppies than an poorly managed one.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/30232/canine-fertility-clinics/236667#236667"]Churning out frenchies or whatever the flavour of the month is. No interest in welfare, only the cash. These have symbiotically developed with the fertility clinics and they have the same level of regard for the law and animal welfare. These people won’t even be registered with a vet and their first question after a c section will be how many are alive. Mothers knackered by 3 years old, 2 litters a year then dispensed with. Awful people to deal with. No one wants these and they don’t want vets. Pointless even trying with these as you will never align.[/quote]

They are the Instagram generation. They never show, never test and all the information they get is from Instagram. And guess who is on Instagram, the fertility clinics. Guess who isn't, us, the vets. We get quite a few of them as well after their bitches don't take or they start dying from boas when heavily pregnant. Some don't listen to anything and go back to their gurus. But some do listen and change their ways. I don't think they're bad people, just incredibly ignorant and uninformed, sometimes right down stupid. Drugs don't help either. But many vets struggle to engage with them especially when it takes a whole day to get read of the weed smell from the reception area.

They go to the "clinic" because that's all they know. Many of them come from families that never had dogs. Many come from cultures that didn't have pet dogs for generations. It's not easy for them to know what's right straight away.

RE: canine fertility clinics

Nicola Cole — Sat, 19 Mar 2022 21:41:42 GMT

[quote userid="28687" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/30232/canine-fertility-clinics/236670#236670"]I have a feeling we ain't seen nothing yet. Dog (2022) - IMDb - they're all going to be churning out Belgian Malinois next,[/quote]

Saw a Facebook post recently that if you didn’t decide to be a stripper after one of his previous films then don’t decide to a get a Malinois after this one! Quite appropriate I thought!

RE: canine fertility clinics

Olivia Cook — Sat, 19 Mar 2022 16:40:45 GMT

I have a feeling we ain't seen nothing yet. Dog (2022) - IMDb - they're all going to be churning out Belgian Malinois next, and while at least those can breathe and have a fighting chance of being self-whelping, the next thing we're going to see is a rise in "behavioural services" offered by these clinics, when the average person who gets one of these puppies gets fed up with having their house destroyed every time they take their eyes off it for 5 minutes and their neighbours are complaining it bites the kids through the fence.... Don't get me wrong, they're a lovely dog in the right hands. They will not be in the right hands.

RE: canine fertility clinics

Joyce Whitehead — Sat, 19 Mar 2022 15:36:50 GMT

I agree largely with David. Being rural we have quite a lot of breeders, but largely spaniels and labradors, working type breeds. However, we do see our fair share of poodle crosses, frenchies etc. Mostly these owners will take our advice, but the more casual/hobby/money making breeder often don’t contact us until pups are born or there is a problem.

We had a client a few months back who made an appointment for a post op check up on her Frenchie. This was confusing as she hadn’t had surgery with us, but we wondered if they had been on holiday. Turned up and she had had a Caesar 7 days earlier. I asked who did this as we hadn’t, (and we do our own ooh) and she said the “fertility clinic” who had sone the AI, had advised she used one of the practices in the neighbouring city. I pointed out we could have done this and she was astonished. No idea this was possible. If she had actually spoken to us about breeding we could have advised her. I suspect we would have been cheaper too but that is beside the point. Annoyingly this practice had made no effort to contact us for history etc. Interestingly they struggle to sell the pups after and have kept two themselves. Clients like this are being influenced by social media to speak to a fertility clinic before their vet. Maybe this is something we are doing wrong but it is annoying.

RE: canine fertility clinics

David Mills — Sat, 19 Mar 2022 11:32:38 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/30232/canine-fertility-clinics/236608#236608"]That vets should do better? [/quote][quote userid="9239" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/30232/canine-fertility-clinics/236630#236630"]Most fertility clinics were open by them because no one was willing to engage.[/quote]

What nonsense.

There are three layers of breeders. Responsible ones, interested in good stock, pride in their business etc, who for the most part will listen to advice and work with their vet. These will access appropriate services.

the mini vets, some interest in their stock but primarily financial. Will churn out bulldogs and say they’re trying to improve the breed but they’re not, not really. These are the opinionated ones talking shite to buyers and fishing out antibiotics etc. Will normally have a take vet to wave through unnamed vaccine certs etc. Will use the fertility clinics. Complain about vet prices etc. The breeders no one wants, understandably.

the purely financial. These have rocketed in numbers last few years. Churning out frenchies or whatever the flavour of the month is. No interest in welfare, only the cash. These have symbiotically developed with the fertility clinics and they have the same level of regard for the law and animal welfare. These people won’t even be registered with a vet and their first question after a c section will be how many are alive. Mothers knackered by 3 years old, 2 litters a year then dispensed with. Awful people to deal with. No one wants these and they don’t want vets. Pointless even trying with these as you will never align.

”vets should do better” is to naively misunderstand the above.

RE: canine fertility clinics

jamie winstone — Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:55:09 GMT

What I find so difficult is that if these clinics wanted to close their doors at a certain time or even go on holiday for 2 weeks, they could.

If a vet clinic was to offer a similar service, the difference would be that they would need to have to offer a 24hr emergency service and continuous cover. This cannot be fair to the veterinary profession or to the clientele who use these repro services.

It is time to either regulate all these pseudo-veterinary operations or deregulate the veterinary market and remove the 24hr requirement completely.

RE: canine fertility clinics

Clive Ansell — Thu, 17 Mar 2022 07:15:03 GMT

[quote userid="4501" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/30232/canine-fertility-clinics"]I guess the RCVS cannot regulate places like this.[/quote]

Nope. The RCVS has no control over non veterinary surgeons who set up and run such clinics. There are 2 locally to me, and it is rumoured they are washing machines - for laundering drug money. If so, they should be of interest to the police.

[quote userid="4501" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/30232/canine-fertility-clinics"]Personally I feel places like this should be shut down.[/quote]

How? unless they are trading illegally, how could they be stopped.

RE: canine fertility clinics

Dinu Catilina — Wed, 16 Mar 2022 22:52:12 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/30232/canine-fertility-clinics/236608#236608"]The giant screen is great for the scanner/microscope - I can see clients bloody loving that. [/quote]

I have that for our microscopes as well, clients love to see a cytology slide explained and it costs you 70 quid for a camera and 100 pounds for a cheap telly.

And even better a nice video otoscope. Clients are shocked when they see what's inside the ear canal especially with the scope magnifying everything.

[quote userid="7811" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/30232/canine-fertility-clinics/236621#236621"]The fertility clinics are welcome to them, and they are welcome to the service they get there (not so good when things go wrong , from my experience)[/quote]

Most fertility clinics were open by them because no one was willing to engage. Yes, you can't stop them breeding bulldogs but you can convince them to start health testing.

RE: canine fertility clinics

Julie Innes — Wed, 16 Mar 2022 15:04:46 GMT

I am one of those vets who tries to discourage the vast majority of people from breeding, I'm afraid!

I have a small number of "Good" breeders in my practice and/ or as friends. Most people's interest in breeding their bitch is for financial gain, or for their own gratification (ie they think it will be "nice") It's not always nice, especially if you don't know what you are doing. I guess we tend to see more of the ones that go wrong than the ones that go right, but I see lots of heartache. Similarly a huge number of problems with dogs today relate to being poorly bred, by people who don't really care what they are turning out as long as it is a pretty colour and generates cash. I genuinely have no patience for or want that type of client. The fertility clinics are welcome to them, and they are welcome to the service they get there (not so good when things go wrong , from my experience)

RE: canine fertility clinics

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 16 Mar 2022 08:47:10 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/30232/canine-fertility-clinics/236608#236608"]Seemingly all most vets want to do is judge rather than assist with breeding.[/quote]

I don't think this is necessarily wrong... BUT - have you seen the type of dogs a lot of these fertility clinics are producing? Extremely brachycephalic bulldogs, frenchies etc in exotic colours seem to be the order of the day. Everything seems to have been genetically tested for what coat colours/ patterns it carries, but I've never heard a BOAS screening score mentioned. I'm not sure it's entirely wrong to judge the desire to produce ever more extreme versions of these dogs when we known the health problems they will face (and quite possibly have ignored) later in life as a result.

I absolutely appreciate your point that those breeders wanting to do the right thing are finding it hard to get the right support from vets, but I don't know if I'd say these clinics ONLY exist because vets aren't providing the service.

RE: canine fertility clinics

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 15 Mar 2022 22:47:49 GMT

[quote userid="4501" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/30232/canine-fertility-clinics"]What do you think?[/quote]

That vets should do better? Would love a progesterone analyser but do maybe 25 pre mate tests per year so can't justify it. The giant screen is great for the scanner/microscope - I can see clients bloody loving that. Never realised how much people would like it when we got a printer for our scanner.

These clinics only exist because vets have left a gaping hole in the market for such services. Seemingly all most vets want to do is judge rather than assist with breeding. Making them the enemy will not advance animal welfare. Clearly much demand for such services.