SOME LA ADVICE...

RE: SOME LA ADVICE...

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 26 Sep 2021 14:43:33 GMT

Inverted L also fine, but as long as sensible over volume used you can literally join the dots with a simple line block.

I personally don't epidural sections. Removes the tail as a control point, makes some cows (especially those already tired) unsteady on their feet.

If doing an epidural then 5ml procaine is fine. What we call an epidural in a cow strictly isn't - the epidural space finishes much more cranially. Procaine not safe in the epidural space so not ok for higher blocks (lumbo sacral). Can add alpha 2 but why? I only do if need extended action - mainly prolapsed uterus that came back out.

I think clenbuterol (Planipart) helps but have done some easy sections without. Jury out.

More a fan of effective physical restraint - calving gate, halter, blindfold - than chemical, but do what you need to, to be safe.

PV is meaning paravertabral Tony, not per vagina.

RE: SOME LA ADVICE...

Derek Lyon — Sun, 26 Sep 2021 14:34:30 GMT

So did I . Planipart etc and Rompun especially when suturing ripped teat.

RE: SOME LA ADVICE...

Anthony Todd — Sun, 26 Sep 2021 13:16:00 GMT

"PV" was my abbreviation for usual vaginal delivery?? so the comment may be in error??

RE: SOME LA ADVICE...

vetbl.locum — Sun, 26 Sep 2021 10:13:06 GMT

I liked and used PV but drifted back to inverted L blocks mainly due lack of practice in technique as I did less & less cattle work.

Also I gave Planipart and an epidural. What drug do people use for epidural these days.

Seem to remember adding Rompun to epidural injection for sheep but not cattle.

Time wise 45 to 60 mins (clip to stitched)

Rgds

RE: SOME LA ADVICE...

Anthony Todd — Sat, 25 Sep 2021 12:13:53 GMT

I wish I'd done more caesars, but it was a sort of admission of failure BITD. My boss [i may have told this before] used to give me [or Irene on the phone]

an hour on a calving and then send Norm who would arrive fag in mouth, strip of finto /calving scrubs and, still smoking and talking, PV and one leg, 2

legs, head and out all while I am draped on the rails exhausted..... then say "what took you so long" which was really helpful!

Caesars are very easy, blocks seemed to work so I would advise them to be an option in many/most dystocias.

RE: SOME LA ADVICE...

Julian Earl — Sat, 25 Sep 2021 09:45:09 GMT

kay Micharl, You are of course entitled yo tour opinion. ; wrong as it is!!

Icamn honrstly saythat Ihavenever noticed any extra bleedinfg!Plus therisk of being kicked is far hgher doing multiplr subcutaneousinjections ovr a larguish ares? I also use a blub of local up by the transverse processes and nicjk the skin for just 2-3mm if that becausethe PV needkes are not very sharp forpenetrating leather plusare flxible of course. To avoidbeig kicked, Ithink that proper restraint is the key, in acush or however? I am very impressedby you doing acaesarean within 30 minutes! You do suture them up as well don't you?? Interrupted suturesas wekll in the muscle/skin??

Iam chuffed with 40-45 minutes for most of them but so many factorscan influencethus of course? For sheep, thePV and casaesarean ismuch, much simpler of courser. The size, the tinner skin. the lighter eeight of the offspringplus of cpurse, the safety for the operative! e tended to always do them at the practice so were in a so-called dirty operating theatrew, = the dental room as well andso on! Thatdefinitely speeded things up. Now these Icoulddefinitely complete within30-40 minutes! Avery pleasing and even relaxing operation!

Thank you for yourinteresting responseMichael, despite my disagreement in turn!

Cheers. stay safe andwell!

RE: SOME LA ADVICE...

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 24 Sep 2021 21:45:28 GMT

Julian - I emphatically think you're wrong. Please humour my reasoning - even if you don't agree.

I started with inverted L blocks as that seemed to be what I saw seeing practice. Worked fine. Decided that the paravertabral was superior so got the needles and taught myself. Must have done 3 years using them almost exclusively. The flank is relaxed, but a LOT more bleeding. Sometimes you got a nasty kick if you needed to extend ventrally. Took much more time (I clipped, bleb of local, 14G needle as guide for a 18G PV needle). I moved to line blocks after a few kicks from fat animals with difficult anatomy or ventral sensation. I felt guilty. Use 100ml per cow and 30ml per sheep. Did a DBR at Liverpool, they had one of the Belgian guys come over who pioneered the caesarean section - ask them what they do - line blocks.

My advice is speed is your friend. Crack on and get calf out and get cow back together. With a following wind and a prepared farmer you can do a section in 30 mins - I don't think that's the case with a PV. I would actively discourage people from using it.

I also think it';s unusual to use more than 1 bottle of lube, although J-lube is a must-have and occasionally comes into its own with a dead, dry calf. They don't use lube in people and I think that says a LOT (other than for examinations)

RE: SOME LA ADVICE...

Derek Lyon — Fri, 24 Sep 2021 09:18:54 GMT

Agree. Paravertebral is best and used Lux soap flakes as lubricant