JUST A DOG???

RE: JUST A DOG???

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 24 Feb 2021 14:36:34 GMT

[quote userid="4256" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/29684/just-a-dog/228765#228765"]Its not the money[/quote]

I didn't mean to suggest that - my sincerest apologies if I did! Mine is very mellow and unflappable about hospitalisation/ handling etc, luckily, but it does mean I worry that I have fewer emotional "brakes" when things do start to go wrong.

She was actually in the practice yesterday for the student nurses to practice bandaging and physiotherapy techniques on her. I'd worried that her breath smelt a bit suspicious so ran a pre-op sample and she's in stage 2 CKD. I spent most of yesterday in tears when I wasn't actively in a consultation - sometimes too much knowledge of likely disease process and median survival times isn't a good thing! I already had to get one of my colleagues to advise on what I should do with her...

(and I made the nurses take all the blood samples and do her blood pressure measurement. She sits like an angel for anyone else and wriggles like a little t**t for me!)

RE: JUST A DOG???

Stephen Courtney — Wed, 24 Feb 2021 10:31:30 GMT

Its not the money - she is well insured! But she is nervous, easily stressed, and I would hesitate to go beyond a certain point...

also I am rubbish at vetting my own pets - when she's ill she will have to go and see a proper vet who can see the woods for the trees and won't flinch over a blood sample or an ex lap

RE: JUST A DOG???

Chris Milligan — Tue, 23 Feb 2021 22:32:57 GMT

[quote userid="8858" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/29684/just-a-dog/228729#228729"] It is inevitable then that more complaints arise during emergencies: a high risk/high cost outcome, perhaps compounded with an unknown vet/practice. [/quote]

Can confirm - I have run an emergency hospital for the better part of five years (albeit in Canada). Complaints - both to the clinic and to the board - are significantly more common, more aggressive in nature and are all much higher stakes in terms of the costs involved. ER vets in Canada get a board complaint on average every 1-2 years. Fortunately here, where cool heads continue to prevail, we still regard pets as property and therefore financially worth next to nothing - this has staved off the $50-60k+ compensation claims for emotional damage routinely seen in the US. The board very much views pets as commodities which ensures a very fair trial amongst peers.

I've been concerned of late of the tendency of both the public, and some members of the profession to push to a more emotional status quo. This plays into the hands of the lawyers waiting in the wings to pick our profession to pieces (don't believe me? - just ask one) and in particular encourages some already vulnerable members of our profession to over-analyse and fear their own mistakes in a very unhealthy way.

RE: JUST A DOG???

Anthony Todd — Tue, 23 Feb 2021 17:37:16 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/29684/just-a-dog/228754#228754"]To regulate a profession out of existance is complete stupidity[/quote]

But only because they can, and the profession is there, waiting, like fruit on the vine!

What else can regulators do?!

Vehicle speeds can often be related to traffic accidents.

Excessive speed causes more accidents than slow speeds.

Where is the analogy in the veterinary world?

RE: JUST A DOG???

Bob Russell — Tue, 23 Feb 2021 16:09:56 GMT

To owners a dog is not just a dog. To a regulator he should be! There is no financial compensation for the emotional value of an animal.

To regulate a profession out of existance is complete stupidity. To do so because it is what every other regulator does is worse.

RE: JUST A DOG???

Julian Earl — Tue, 23 Feb 2021 16:00:13 GMT

In a similar vein to Bob just above, my last dog was a Labrdor that we rescued. E hd lost our previous Labrador a year before and I refused to let my parents replace that one Honey because it could not be Honey again. My Mum had won a gold medal at obedience classes for Honey, not for my Mum!! As I was studying for my A0levels we heard of a Labrador needing a new home. Owned by two doctors they did not have time to look after him properly so he lived his his first year shut in their garage all day while they worked at Leeds General Infirmary! I remember with great feeling the day my Mum asked me if I wanted to see this dog and we drove there. It was undoubtedly Love at First Sight as he was lying in the afternoon sunshine on their front step, tail beating the floor furiously when we approached. I remember driving back home with this exuberantly friendly Labrador sat on the back seat of my Mum's VW Polo his head resting on my shoulder in the front seat! He settled in very quickly and he proved a very significant bond between my Mum and I because at that time my Mum and Dad were separating and the dog, " CASPAR" became an important bond for the rest of the family. It is no exaggeration to say that he was bonkers! Probably delighted to have the run of a nice warm house instead of a concrete-floored garage 24 hours per day! His so-called trial-week was a sham, we had no intention of returning him and instead I bonded very, very closely with this dog, now aged 18 months. I had thought that I could never love another dog as much as I loved the previous one Honey but I did indeed and have long known that I would indeed have risked my own life to save Caspar should it have been necessary! Being a Labrador he did have very severe HD and the local vet could not or would not operate so the kind Drerek Lewis at Liverpool University did a bilateral femoral head excision, done 6 months apart. Although Caspar hobbled out after the first one, he galloped down the corridor after the second hip was done when we collected him. After the inevitable convalescence Caspar never looked back and recovered to being hyperactive. plus running again. Sadly in subsequent years he developed what I now recognise as OCD in his elbows which slowed him down again. But the key point here is that he became far more than just a dog! He was a devoted pet and undoubtedly a true member of the family. I stayed with him when the local vet PTS Caspar and whispered in his ear as he passed out and away. Sorry to be a neurotic pet owner [ No, not sorry really!!]but to this day, 33 years since we lost him I still have a favourite photograph on the window ledge a few feet away from where I am sitting right now. .

Sorry Arlo, but Caspar, rescue or not was never just a dog!!

Thinking of Caspar I used to say to distraught owners on losing a pet, " Well, if there is a heaven, our pets will be there! If they are not there, then it would not be heaven would it?

HTH?

RE: JUST A DOG???

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 23 Feb 2021 15:41:27 GMT

Excellently put, Bob.

RE: JUST A DOG???

Bob Russell — Tue, 23 Feb 2021 14:33:19 GMT

We lost our GSD a couple of weeks ago (age and back end got him). Family worshipped the ground he walked on as probably the best dog we have ever had.

From a financial point of view he was worth bugger all towards the end and was not that expensive at the start.

The RCVS trying to regulate us as if we were human medics is quite nonsensical. If one of our patients die the financial losses are probably a few hundred or a thousand or two.

Losing a human breadwinner is in the hundreds of thousands if not into the millions.

We lose a dog and life goes on. We lose a close relative and life is completely devastated, sometimes for life.

Human medics work in a closely controlled environment for very good reasons. They often have very specific skill sets and may rarely venture out of that zone. They have a budget of billions around them.

We have to stretch our skills way outside our comfort zone. We take risks with our patients because we don't have billions around us. We do our best within the owners' or insurance company limits, thousands at most.

Every day vets are achieving minor miracles because the majority really care about the patients. Patients and owners deserve a degree of protection from the totally incompetent however overly strict regulation will make the job impractical and add expense. Vets will be watching their backs more and more.

The fear of unpaid suspension will destroy the profession. Why would any vet put themselves out there for pot shots to be taken of them? Vets have transferrable skills.

Our dog was still 'just a dog' but a pretty marvelous chapter in our lives.

RE: JUST A DOG???

Jill Butterworth — Tue, 23 Feb 2021 10:54:54 GMT

But that surely depends what definition of 'care' you are using. A perfectionist expert will quite definitely take care to do an excellent job, but does he/she have to 'care' about the animal in an emotional sense? They will only 'care' that the animal lives or dies as a reflection of their accomplishment.

I remember reading an article about doctors getting sued as correlated with their 'mistakes'. The sweet kindly old GPs who made clinical errors were complained about far less frequently than their brash, but far more clinically astute, counterparts.

A well loved old vet once remarked to me, when dragged from his bed to an RTA, how horrified clients would be to know that his only thoughts as he drove were 'I hope it's dead'.

Our thoughts can't be policed, they're not even real...

RE: JUST A DOG???

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 23 Feb 2021 10:17:42 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/29684/just-a-dog/228728#228728"]I wondered what on earth you were talking about till I googled it. I hadn't seen that sketch before. Brilliant. Thanks for getting my day off to such a good start. [/quote]

Mark Hedberg and you've given me an idea. One of the things I find rewarding about my gadget reviews is people saying it's made them laugh. We all need more of that. And on the few occasions where I sit down at my desk for the day to find that someone has shared something which makes me laugh out loud, I'm very grateful for it.

So I think I'm going to start a blog or thread with something posted first thing every morning which should put a smile on the face.

Going a bit off topic here ... back to 'only a dog'.

RE: JUST A DOG???

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 23 Feb 2021 10:11:35 GMT

[quote userid="8858" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/29684/just-a-dog/228729#228729"]I'm not sure I concur that we should beat ourselves up if things go wrong. Audit, analyse and improve, of course, but it's perfectly possible to do an excellent job without giving a stuff.[/quote]

Jill ButterworthYou really surprise me! First, I did put the qualifier in 'to a degree'. I just mean that you should care. When I look back at my eclectic career, the things I was good at were the things I cared about. I've always thought it's an important driver to do better.

RE: JUST A DOG???

Jill Butterworth — Tue, 23 Feb 2021 10:00:03 GMT

From an absolute perspective, yes, it is 'only a dog', and our regulatory body should protect us from clients who project a disproportionate amount of attachment to their animal and hence a distorted vitriol at an adverse outcome.

Our available emotional quotient during a consultation can help protect us from such harm, but a trusting relationship between vet and client, like any other, is developed over time. It is inevitable then that more complaints arise during emergencies: a high risk/high cost outcome, perhaps compounded with an unknown vet/practice.

I'm not sure I concur that we should beat ourselves up if things go wrong. Audit, analyse and improve, of course, but it's perfectly possible to do an excellent job without giving a stuff.

A good career is a tightrope of science, art, luck, likability and an effective compartmentalising strategy.

Being sued is frequently is predominantly related to money, which has become the currency of love in the owner, pet, vet relationship.

RE: JUST A DOG???

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 23 Feb 2021 09:43:47 GMT

[quote userid="7638" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/29684/just-a-dog/228727#228727"]Conquistador Instant Coffee comes to mind![/quote]

I wondered what on earth you were talking about till I googled it. I hadn't seen that sketch before. Brilliant. Thanks for getting my day off to such a good start.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2hwqnq

RE: JUST A DOG???

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 23 Feb 2021 09:35:12 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/29684/just-a-dog/228726#228726"]I struggle to think of any example in history where the headlines generated by a PR agency caused their client to go and top themselve[/quote]

Conquistador Instant Coffee comes to mind!

RE: JUST A DOG???

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 23 Feb 2021 09:25:36 GMT

[quote userid="5464" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/29684/just-a-dog/228725#228725"]

Arlo Guthrie said:
few people would pay as much to save an animal as they would a human

Depends on the person and the animal!

[/quote]

I said 'few'!

[quote userid="5464" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/29684/just-a-dog/228725#228725"]

Arlo Guthrie said:
we're not killing anyone, it's just a newspaper headline

Maybe not in your case, but it has been known for folk to kill themselves due to media coverage.

[/quote]

I was talking about media coverage generated by PR agencies. I struggle to think of any example in history where the headlines generated by a PR agency caused their client to go and top themselves .

RE: JUST A DOG???

Chris Geddes — Tue, 23 Feb 2021 09:20:51 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/29684/just-a-dog/228723#228723"]few people would pay as much to save an animal as they would a human[/quote]

Depends on the person and the animal!

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/29684/just-a-dog/228723#228723"]we're not killing anyone, it's just a newspaper headline[/quote]

Maybe not in your case, but it has been known for folk to kill themselves due to media coverage.

RE: JUST A DOG???

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 23 Feb 2021 09:02:08 GMT

Julian was picking up on my comment that 'it is just a dog', so I'll just elaborate a bit more.

When I say 'it's just a dog', of course for most owners, it is not just a dog/cat/tortoise/horse [delete as applicable]. Most form a bond with their animal that make it more than just a dog you see walking down the street.

When I 'it's just a dog', I mean it just in the sense that I think you need to keep a sense of perspective, especially when it comes to regulation and, actually, mental wellbeing.

In terms of regulation, it IS 'just a dog' in the sense that few people would pay as much to save an animal as they would a human. And when I think of the severe anguish and suffering that I have seen vets going through when subject to a disciplinary, I think: 'it's just a dog' (the people I have known who have gone through that process have either been not guilty, or not guilty of causing any significant suffering to an animal).

And when it comes to mental wellbeing, you do really beat yourselves up when things go wrong. Of course you do, and so you should. To a degree. I mean, the day you don't care is the probably the day you're in the wrong job. But I think that can place a huge burden on your shoulders, so it is important to just have that sense of perspective, that at the end of it all, it is 'just a dog'.

I'm always reminded of my favourite boss who used to say to me (usually after I had put my foot in it and generated some embarrassing newspaper headline): "Arlo, don't worry, we're not killing anyone, it's just a newspaper headline".

What she said didn't stop me from caring about what the newspapers said about my clients, or worrying about it. But it took the edge off it.

RE: JUST A DOG???

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:32:04 GMT

[quote userid="4256" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/29684/just-a-dog/228719#228719"]My own dog is worth the world to me but I wouldn't subject her to absolutely anything[/quote]

I think I have a slightly different blind spot here - I probably would do/ spend absolutely anything on mine. I'm sure in the future I will be relying heavily on colleagues to advocate for her and ensure I don't cling on at all costs and to her detriment...

RE: JUST A DOG???

Stephen Courtney — Mon, 22 Feb 2021 22:05:38 GMT

^^^ Jill has put it very succinctly.

My own dog is worth the world to me but I wouldn't subject her to absolutely anything... it has to be taken on balance - how much pain / stress/ money for how much benefit...not always easy

RE: JUST A DOG???

Jill Butterworth — Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:44:07 GMT

This is not exactly what you mean, but I feel most of the expense vs euthanasia decisions I helped clients make were after laying out their options but then were progressed by reading between the lines about what the client wanted to do or could afford, enabling an informed decision, whilst trying not to project my own opinion, but still allowing them to save face should it be necessary. There were very few times where I truly disagreed with their decision (either way) and had to ask a colleague for a second opinion because I could not bring myself to carry out their wishes. I always reminded myself, it's not my dog, my money, or my life and I have no business judging people, I can only advocate for the animal.