"The skin is the most common site of neoplasia in the dog" - Discuss

RE: "The skin is the most common site of neoplasia in the dog" - Discuss

Julian Earl — Wed, 02 Dec 2020 13:30:16 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/oncology/f/discussions/29529/the-skin-is-the-most-common-site-of-neoplasia-in-the-dog---discuss/227062#227062"]nd what is the obsession with mast cell tumours? How many spread? How many cause issues[/quote]

One of the most useful and practical CPD- training I ever did was for in-house cytology for masses at any site. It was hosted by Dick White referrals and using FNA and Diff-Quik, it allowed rapid n-house cytology and you quickly learnt to identify the type of tumour, MCTs being one of the more obvious. It is very good for job satisfaction and provides justifiable argument for removal or not, s the case might be.MCTs were reasonably common. I could not claim to identify malignancy in particular and at some point you have to make a decision based on our knowledge about a cell-type for a tumour. It allows you to be more confident about local excision or more radical surgery. Such a course and inhouse investigations are Thoroughly recommended as you can probably tell,

Thankds for reading!

RE: "The skin is the most common site of neoplasia in the dog" - Discuss

Beats — Mon, 30 Nov 2020 22:41:33 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/oncology/f/discussions/29529/the-skin-is-the-most-common-site-of-neoplasia-in-the-dog---discuss/227060#227060"]Similar to the statistic at the London Vet Show that 1 in 7 enterectomies break down[/quote]

I've thankfully never seen an enterectomy break down, but I'm honestly not sure I've actually done 7. I can actually only think of 5 cases I remember off-hand when I try to think about it.

I'm quite forgiving of blackened gut, so perhaps I have a high threshold for -ectomising it and that may explain much lower case experience than others? Or perhaps I pick obstruction cases up earlier [only joking!] and don't often remove GI neoplastic masses.

Anyway, I'm not sure I think that figure sounds improbable, but I guess will depend a bit on the cases, with some being much more likely to breakdown than others I suspect, even with appropriate surgical technique.

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/oncology/f/discussions/29529/the-skin-is-the-most-common-site-of-neoplasia-in-the-dog---discuss/227060#227060"]Hand on heart 'how many dogs die of skin tumours?[/quote]

Less than arthritis?

More than Liver or Kidney disease?

Bit more than heart disease?

I'm honestly not sure what most dogs die of.

There must be some stats on cause of death in a UK dog population somewhere? I'd say skin lumps are a contributing factor to euthanasia in a significant proportion of dogs, not sure what - perhaps 15%? I could be way out. Definitely less than 50%k, definitely more than 1% :-)

I'm not sure it is. Might be, but I'm open minded presently.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/oncology/f/discussions/29529/the-skin-is-the-most-common-site-of-neoplasia-in-the-dog---discuss/227061#227061"]It sounds like total nonsense to me[/quote]

Well, got me thinking nonetheless. I've always assumed that internal lumps outnumbered external ones (and this stat agrees with that I think, but perhaps suggests that external ones are proportionally more common than I hitherto imagined). Dogs are, externally, remarkably lumpy as they age compared to cats and people in my experience, so I'm not dismissing this out-of-hand. Would be interested to know where those stats come from though (I assume they were cut and pasted from a primary source somewhere) - I haven't a clue but I'll post if I find out!

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/oncology/f/discussions/29529/the-skin-is-the-most-common-site-of-neoplasia-in-the-dog---discuss/227062#227062"]And what is the obsession with mast cell tumours?[/quote]

I've always had a fascination with mast cell tumours. I think it is the lack of clear science behind decision-making, the need to make decisions, and the ease with which they can be identified in consult that feed my fascination. A mast cell tumour may be a very uncommon cause of euthanasia/death in a dog, but it certainly does lead there sometimes and picking those cases from the "garden-variety" MCTs and treating them with the aim of preventing that outcome long before it is on the horizon is a fascinating challenge. I euthanased a dog at the weekend due to metastatic mast cell tumour (axillary and prescap lymph nodes after excision of "mass" from over ipselateral ribs reported in summer) - having spent 7 years keeping it struvite free, after an initial cystotomy, by treating recurrent UTI's, it was a disappointing end (albeit I'm not saying that could have been handled better to a different better outcome necessarily).

RE: "The skin is the most common site of neoplasia in the dog" - Discuss

David Mills — Mon, 30 Nov 2020 21:47:18 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/oncology/f/discussions/29529/the-skin-is-the-most-common-site-of-neoplasia-in-the-dog---discuss/227060#227060"]Hand on heart 'how many dogs die of skin tumours?[/quote]

And what is the obsession with mast cell tumours? How many spread? How many cause issues? An absolute minority. Overtreatment? Yes, bases on a very skewed referral population.

RE: "The skin is the most common site of neoplasia in the dog" - Discuss

David Mills — Mon, 30 Nov 2020 21:44:48 GMT

[quote userid="12930" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/oncology/f/discussions/29529/the-skin-is-the-most-common-site-of-neoplasia-in-the-dog---discuss/227059#227059"]The quote was from unreferenced material from a UK university specialist in Oncology - it was educational material for less-knowledgable vets like myself rather than results of primary research from that Specialist I[/quote]

Ah I do like it when the high priests of EBVM start spouting anecdote.

As a first opinion practitioner, whose opinion is more valuable? A specialist seeing about 1% of the cases you do, or your own experience?

It sounds like total nonsense to me

RE: "The skin is the most common site of neoplasia in the dog" - Discuss

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 30 Nov 2020 21:30:43 GMT

Similar to the statistic at the London Vet Show that 1 in 7 enterectomies break down, is it any wonder vets refer and are on the back foot.

Hand on heart 'how many dogs die of skin tumours?' I'm not saying we shouldn't be FNA'ing masses but it's horribly skewed from real life.

Neil

RE: "The skin is the most common site of neoplasia in the dog" - Discuss

Beats — Mon, 30 Nov 2020 21:22:50 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/oncology/f/discussions/29529/the-skin-is-the-most-common-site-of-neoplasia-in-the-dog---discuss/227058#227058"]What's the source? Some skewed referral population? [/quote]

The quote was from unreferenced material from a UK university specialist in Oncology - it was educational material for less-knowledgable vets like myself rather than results of primary research from that Specialist I assume.

So I'm not sure what the original source material may be, hence uncertainty on how to interpret these stats.

RE: "The skin is the most common site of neoplasia in the dog" - Discuss

David Mills — Mon, 30 Nov 2020 21:12:11 GMT

What's the source? Some skewed referral population?

RE: "The skin is the most common site of neoplasia in the dog" - Discuss

Chris Geddes — Mon, 30 Nov 2020 10:56:30 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/oncology/f/discussions/29529/the-skin-is-the-most-common-site-of-neoplasia-in-the-dog---discuss/227051#227051"]I also think that due to with some people 'everything' gets an FNA[/quote]

Whilst biopsy/removal of everything is clearly OTT, surely there's no harm in FNA'ing every lump? On the converse, I get quite frustrated when I suggest to an owner that an FNA would be a good idea and they say "oh don't worry, Mr Smith told me last year it's nothing". I often wish I had Mr Smith's cytology vision.

RE: "The skin is the most common site of neoplasia in the dog" - Discuss

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 30 Nov 2020 10:47:53 GMT

I've often thought that if a dog walked about inside out, we'd see far more tumours, so this isn't a robust arguement

I also think that due to with some people 'everything' gets an FNA/biopsy/removal. Therefore the ones that are left as 'wait and see' are never included in the statistics

A more rigorous one would be take 100 skin lumps and biopsy all of them, that will give the true stats as after all I do't believe that 33% of skin tumours are mast cells

Neil